Victory data base

[model3sw]

Hello Rob:

I can help with your questions, which are much easier to answer since you provided good pics and a complete serial number.

(1) S/N V 699640? Based on the info in the Victory Model Database, which my pal LWCmdr45 and I administer, I can estimate for you that your Victory was likely shipped in the October, 1944 time frame.

(2) What does CTG stand for? That is the abbreviation for "Cartridge".

(3) The lanyard ring is missing. Are original's available and where? Yes, lanyard rings are usually available on Gunbroker.com and Ebay.com. Don't forget that you will also need the small pin that will secure the lanyard ring in place.

(4) Stocks appear to be walnut and in such good condition I wonder if they are original? Yes, they are walnut. I suspect that they are also original to the gun based on how they appear to fit in your photo. To find out for sure, take the stocks off. There will be a single serial number, without any prefix, inside the right stock panel. If original to the gun that serial will match the gun's serial. Victory stocks were hand-fitted to each revolver which required that they be serialed.

(5) 4 screws showing, don't know if a 5th is under stock as have not had stocks off yet? Yes, you have a 5-screw gun. (All Victory Models were 5-screw guns.) The 5th screw is located on the forward side of the frame just above the trigger guard.

(6) Yoke has S 5 0 2 7 and I'm not sure if S or 5 is that? It is probably a 5. These numbers are of little consequence.

(7) What is the procedure to get a factory letter? Do you have to belong to SWCA or Historical Society to do that? All that is required is a written request with details on the gun and payment of the fee of $50. Follow this link for the thread by Handejector and click on the blue link that says "factory letter request form." http://smith-wessonforum.com/swca-public-area/96291-information-about-swca.html Print that out, fill it out and send it in. If you do get a letter please post back here with the results so that we can add that information to the Database.

Am I correct in assuming that there are no markings on the left top strap of your Victory? It is a very nice example.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

Hi, Charlie,

I picked up a rather unusual Victory today. United States Property on top strap with British proofs on bottom (milled area) of what seems to be a longer Victory barrel cut down 2". US inspector proof and flaming bomb on butt.

I presume the .38 Caliber markings on the bottom side of barrel indicate British .38/200 and not .38 S&W as was presented to me by seller.

It surely is not a .38 Special even though the shortened barrel has no markings on either side. Butt has hole for lanyard ring stud but no lanyard ring. Hole is open, not plugged.

Butt SN: V 119989 (cylinder # 137199 with what seems to be an improved star (rotational gear) and smooth walnut (nice condition) grips # 487328. By SN on butt I'm guessing originally manufactured appx mid-1942. Is that near correct ?

It further appears the outer surface of the barrel (only) had been lightly turned in a lathe, a groove machined flat to clear the LERK. No spring loaded forward catch on barrel. Barrel re-blackened along with the top strap that may have been lightly sand blasted as if some very light attempt may have been taken to disguise the US Property stamp. The balance of the gun seems as properly worn original finish.

Barrel seems front sight installation is pressed in to machined groove. Front sight remotely reminds me of a Chief Special Target front sight except not quite as tall as the CST1. No serrations atop the front sight.

I purchased this only because it seemed odd, possibly a conversion of necessity rather than for post-war surplus sale.

Is it common for British proofed Victory models to have a US Property stamping on the top strap ?

I didn't pay enough for it to matter. I only purchased it speculating it may have been British conversion to short barrel and .38/200 for a specific war time purpose, e.g. for pilots or special ops.

What's your insight ? Sal

 

[Absalom]

Sal:

I'm not Charlie, so I'll leave a detailed response to him, but your mention of British proofs on the barrel flat and butt piqued my interest. We don't usually see those in those locations. Any chance of some close-up photos?

Your seller was correct, btw. The British .38-200 is identical to the .38 S&W; while Colt actually labeled its guns for the British with .38-200, S&W always used its proprietary caliber label.

 

[model3sw]

Sal:

I'm not Charlie, so I'll leave a detailed response to him, but your mention of British proofs on the barrel flat and butt piqued my interest. We don't usually see those in those locations. Any chance of some close-up photos?

Your seller was correct, btw. The British .38-200 is identical to the .38 S&W; while Colt actually labeled its guns for the British with .38-200, S&W always used its proprietary caliber label.

I wrote:

Hi, Charlie,

I picked up a rather unusual Victory today. United States Property on top strap with British proofs on bottom (milled area) of what seems to be a longer Victory barrel cut down 2". CORRECTION: Under high magnification: US inspector proof and flaming bomb on butt.

I presume the .38 Caliber markings on the bottom side of barrel indicate British .38/200 and not .38 S&W as was presented to me by seller.

It surely is not a .38 Special even though the shortened barrel has no markings on either side. Butt has hole for lanyard ring stud but no lanyard ring. Hole is open, not plugged.

Butt SN: V 119989 (cylinder # 137199 with what seems to be an improved star (rotational gear) and smooth walnut (nice condition) grips # 487328. By SN on butt I'm guessing originally manufactured appx mid-1942. Is that near correct ?

It further appears the outer surface of the barrel (only) had been lightly turned in a lathe, a groove machined flat to clear the LERK. No spring loaded forward catch on barrel. Barrel re-blackened along with the top strap that may have been lightly sand blasted as if some very light attempt may have been taken to disguise the US Property stamp. The balance of the gun seems as properly worn original finish.

Barrel seems front sight installation is pressed in to machined groove. Front sight remotely reminds me of a Chief Special Target front sight except not quite as tall as the CST1. No serrations atop the front sight.

I purchased this only because it seemed odd, possibly a conversion of necessity rather than for post-war surplus sale.

Is it common for British proofed Victory models to have a US Property stamping on the top strap ?

I didn't pay enough for it to matter. I only purchased it speculating it may have been British conversion to short barrel and .38/200 for a specific war time purpose, e.g. for pilots or special ops.

What's your insight ? Sal

Here are some pix:

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello Sal:

Nice to see you over here on this side of the Forum.

What you have is a cut-down Victory which originally shipped as a Lend Lease gun. As a Lend Lease gun it would bear the US Property markings on the left top strap as it remained US Property and not UK property. It was .38 S&W with a 5 inch barrel. The markings on the bottom of the barrel are post-war civilian UK markings, not military.

HTH.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[Absalom]

Thanks for posting the photos, Sal. Charles has given you a comprehensive answer.

Let me just add that the huddle of post-war stampings in that location under the barrel is rather unusual. Among them appears to be a serial, 50630, which indicates that the barrel also is not original to the frame, so you seem to have a true Frankengun, with differently serial-numbered frame, cylinder, barrel and stocks married together at some later point in time.

Another issue hasn't been addressed beyond the nominal caliber of this gun, but you should test the chambers with a live .38 Special round. If, as I suspect it will, the round seats all the way in, the cylinder was converted post-war to that caliber. This usually happened without further marks to that effect on the gun.

 

[model3sw]

Hi, Charlie, that did help, thank you. I suppose if I were in the desert being chased by Rommel that I'd have something one step better than having nothing, (which is pretty close to what I paid for it).

Hi, Absalom, Yes, it's a Heinz 57 or Frankengun as I submitted the various SNs on the original post even though all parts are Victory SN parts. It was the 2" barrel and proofs on underside of barrel that called to me even though all other attributes serious collectors seek were all negative attributes.

Some of the local weekend traders that need more info on certain model S&Ws usually check in with me for a consult on odd S&W stuff. I never collected Victories nor M&Ps pre or post war unless the condition was outstanding and / or they held something odd or attributes less seen, like 1899's and certain subsequent M&Ps with target sights. My first was a US Navy directly from th grandson of a WWII Navy flyer with old holster having GF's name inked in the under flap. I met the grandfather once years prior when I did some good will at the local VA hospital.

This is only the third time in my life I purchased a mis-match SN S&W. In the past I purchased only 2 other S&W with non matching numbers but those were clearly arsenal-ized and only because of scarcity and the price was very reasonable. One was a S&W NM3 Argentine contract with 3 sets of numbers, but all Argentine contract SN parts and a US Cavalry model American, again assorted SN parts but all parts were Cavalry contract SNs, even the stocks.

Thank you both for sharing your expertise with me.

PS: I'm so old I remember $100 (or less) would get you a nice condition Victory. Prices have not increased in much, comparatively , over the years except for those nicer quality and scarcer variations

 

[Quiet 1]

One More Photo of my 1943 Victory

With some accruements I like to imagine being relevant to it's past.

A 48 star flag.

Genuine, Period correct Marine Corps Pilot Wings.

The ribbons are: A Navy / Marine Corps Distinguished Service Cross. A Navy and Marine Corps Ribbon. An Air Medal Ribbon with one gold star. A WWII American Campaign 1941 - 1946 with 2 bronze stars. An Asia Pacific 1941 - 1946 with 3 bronze stars

Period correct USMC collar emblems and basic badge.

 

[onesaxon]

Looking for info on newly acquired pistol

S&W Serial # V75xxx. Parkerized finish. Marked "Unite States Property" Also has what looks to be British Broad Arrows. Any and all information would be appreciated.

 

[DWalt]

V75xxx would suggest a shipment date of around August 1942. You have really not provided enough information to make a more precise identification, such as barrel length or caliber stamping on the barrel. And also no picture.

 

[Absalom]

S&W Serial # V75xxx. Parkerized finish. Marked "Unite States Property" Also has what looks to be British Broad Arrows. Any and all information would be appreciated.

As DWalt said, more info is needed, especially pictures of the markings. Broad arrows are unlikely to be British, since the British were the only recipients of BSR's who did NOT as a rule add military markings. Maybe Canadian or Australian.

 

[Quiet 1]

For Those Who Like These WWII Handguns

Here is a link to a thread I just posted over in the "Other Brands" section. If you enjoy looking at WWII military issued sidearms I believe you'll enjoy these.

Link> http://smith-wessonforum.com/firear...ii-military-issue-sidearms.html#post139230441

 

[Quiet 1]

Last One, I Promise

But I couldn't resist posing the Victory with the Marine Aviator. He is clearly wearing his Victory and his Navy issued Ordnance Department watch.

So, I dug out my 1943 Elgin ORG. DEPT. watch which looks a lot like his. I think it makes a great "prop" to compliment the Victory.

OK! I promise! No more photos of my Victory.

 

[Absalom]

Trying to help out a youtuber who left a comment on a Hickok45 video asking about the approximate ship date of his Victory (V200902) and its likely destination. (I do not know the caliber or barrel length.) Left a comment myself, pointing him to this forum and to the S&W Historical Foundation, but then curiosity got the better of me, so I thought I'd bounce the serial number off of you guys ...

Likely December 1942.

 

[DWalt]

Trying to help out a youtuber who left a comment on a Hickok45 video asking about the approximate ship date of his Victory (V200902) and its likely destination. (I do not know the caliber or barrel length.) Left a comment myself, pointing him to this forum and to the S&W Historical Foundation, but then curiosity got the better of me, so I thought I'd bounce the serial number off of you guys ...

January 1943 is a more likely shipping date. Regarding its initial destination, the chances are heavily in favor of its having shipped to some military facility or depot, and it would have a U. S. PROPERTY or U. S. NAVY topstrap stamping. You did not provide that information, probably because you do not have it. Without a topstrap stamping, a factory letter would probably tell you that it was shipped to some civilian destination (such as a police department or defense contractor), and more exactly where.

 

[Absalom]

January 1943 is a more likely shipping date. Regarding its initial destination, the chances are heavily in favor of its having shipped to some military facility or depot, and it would have a U. S. PROPERTY or U. S. NAVY topstrap stamping. You did not provide that information, probably because you do not have it. Without a topstrap stamping, a factory letter would probably tell you that it was shipped to some civilian destination (such as a police department or defense contractor), and more exactly where.

And it could also be a British Service Revolver, a possibility given that we don't have any distinguishing feature yet.

 

[C Broad Arrow]

We do not see Victory models often here in Toronto. But I saw one yesterday at an online site and asked for pictures before buying - $150us.

But I would like to know the approximate ship date before concluding the deal. Serial number is V295632

It is a 38 S&W. There is no finish left on the gun.To me, this is how many Victory guns appear in pictures, but i could be wrong.

The lanyard ring is there, but there is no serial number on the butt. The owner says it has been machined off. It is hard to tell from the pictures. I can see no evidence of a serial number or any marks from machining. Is it possible a serial number was not placed there or that a repair might have removed it? I am not familiar with what the SOP would be in this case. There is a serial number marked under the barrel.

It cycles and locks up well.

It says "US Property G.H.D." on the top strap so I am guessing that it was part of the Lend-Lease program.

Bore and cylinders are in good shape. Bore is very shiny.

Thoughts? Age? Value?

 

[Muley Gil]

In the US, under state and Federal laws, that would an illegal weapon due to having the serial number removed.

It's a shame, as that Victory doesn't look bad at all.

Is .38 S&W ammo available at a reasonable price?

 

[C Broad Arrow]

Is .38 S&W ammo available at a reasonable price?

Never seen it at retail recently. Handloading I guess. I did see brass though recently.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Yep, not legal in the US. Don't know Canadian law. You might want to check the cylinder chambers to see if it has been reamed for .38 Special. That was a popular modification. Of course, .38/200 Webley (.38 S&W) was the official cartridge of the Commonwealth and should be readily available up there.

 

[Absalom]

The gun is from mid-1943. The lighting in the pictures makes it hard to tell, but you may be mistaking the original dull greyish phosphate finish for "no finish left"; happens a lot, if you haven't seen a lot of these in natural light. To me the surface actually looks quite good.

Your photos don't show all pertinent areas, but I don't see any post-war British proof marks, which is uncommon. But you are correct that it was a Lend-lease gun which (in the absence of any other country-specific markings) would have shipped to Britain.

Except for the butt. All butt markings have simply been ground off. As Muley Gil has pointed out, in the US, that's bad news. If you can own it legally like that, the price would be attractive, of course.