Victory data base

[Absalom]

Dale:

You pretty much hit all the points why I don’t think this is a Navy job if (and that’s still an IF) this 11 61 should indeed be a rework date.

The Navy had oodles of them; they transferred guns to the Air Force, the National Park Service and other federal departments, and lots were dumped as surplus starting in the 1960s. Many are still in great shape without any potential rework markings. It would make little sense to spend money on factory reconditioning this late.

The other thing is that it is basically a Sasquatch issue: If a military refurbishment contract existed in 1961, we would have evidence by now. Maybe Charlie can speak to this, but I don’t think we do.

There is one factory rework contract which I’m sure you are aware of: 40,000 Navy guns in May 1945, to include the installation of the hammer block.

By the way, S&W had a policy against refinishing Victorys in a different finish. But I do not believe they flat out refused to work on them post-war.

 

[tenntex32]

My assumption was that if refurbishment of Victories had been required, at least in any quantity, they would have been sent to one of the military arsenals where that sort of work was done routinely rather than back to S&W.

I agree, especially if on a large enough scale. That's why I'm curious about the smaller unit level possibly sending onesies and twosies back to the factory if that was a simpler approach......assuming S&W would do the work.

Hence why I want to see those markings on the possible factory reworked Victory. If they truly are factory rework markings then a SWHF letter would show whether or not it was reworked for a military or civilian owner.....yes?

Maybe we'll see those markings soon.

Dale

 

[tenntex32]

There is one factory rework contract which I’m sure you are aware of: 40,000 Navy guns in May 1945, to include the installation of the hammer block.

By the way, S&W had a policy against refinishing Victorys in a different finish. But I do not believe they flat out refused to work on them post-war.

This brings up a couple of good points.

We know the "S" was added to the V prefix on the Victory models getting the new style hammer block towards the end of the war production. Did those revolvers that were "reworked" to get the new hammer block safety receive any added rework symbols and date codes as well? I haven't heard of such, other than the "S" being added, but alas I do not own one.

The other point, if S&W would do rework on Victory model examples (but not refinish work) how come we don't see many Victory model examples with rework symbols and date codes, after all there were tons of them unleashed onto the civilian surplus market? Maybe I have seen one or two over the years and I have simply forgotten, or maybe you have seen several examples of such and can correct me if I am greatly mistaken on this point? If you have pics of factory rework symbols and date codes on Victory revolvers that would be helpful.

Dale

 

[grendelbean]

Pics of the example and markings in question would help greatly.

Sounds like you have much firsthand experience with the Victory model. Would you happen to have any pics of yourself with any of them while you were in the Navy?

You know we love pics of Victory models in actual use!

Dale

I probably have given the wrong impression of experience with the in-service use of the Victory Models: The one issued to fly with came with six rounds of tracer - to use as a signalling device if you had to become separated from the aircraft. The one in Vietnam I immediately turned-in for a 1911 .45, which is what I carried for the whole time over there. The revolver I had to qualify with in New York stayed with the armorer in the range after I shot the qualification course - I never saw it again. I was only trying to make the point that the Victorys were still in active service and use at least all the way to 1973. Sorry to give the wrong impression. I don't know much at all and am trying to learn.
Sorry, no pictures. Wish I had some made, but never did. Thanks for the interest.

 

[Absalom]

.... Did those revolvers that were "reworked" to get the new hammer block safety receive any added rework symbols and date codes as well? ....

My understanding is that the Victorys on that contract were refurbished to “as new” standard, mechanical overhaul, new stampings, new finish, new ordnance inspection, the works.

I am not aware of rework dates on the grip frame, and I haven’t got one to check. I do have a pre-Victory which was shipped to the DSC in 1/42, thus unstamped, but went back to the factory at some point after late 1943 but before the adoption of the hammer block, because it has a complete set of G.H.D. ordnance/property stampings which can only have been applied at the factory. It has no other rework marks.

 

[tenntex32]

I probably have given the wrong impression of experience with the in-service use of the Victory Models: The one issued to fly with came with six rounds of tracer - to use as a signalling device if you had to become separated from the aircraft. The one in Vietnam I immediately turned-in for a 1911 .45, which is what I carried for the whole time over there. The revolver I had to qualify with in New York stayed with the armorer in the range after I shot the qualification course - I never saw it again. I was only trying to make the point that the Victorys were still in active service and use at least all the way to 1973. Sorry to give the wrong impression. I don't know much at all and am trying to learn.
Sorry, no pictures. Wish I had some made, but never did. Thanks for the interest.

No worries, I was just hopeful another pic of a Victory in actual use was going to surface. The fact that you did use them occasionally during your service has me green as hell though.

I would see our Marine helo pilots wearing them occasionally when I was aboard the USS Wasp in the early nineties. I just remember seeing them as old smooth gripped revolvers back then. (I didn't know anything about Victory revolvers then and had no way of knowing they were a WWII era item. Pity.)

I have heard/read that some helo pilots preferred the Victory over the 1911 due to them being lighter and less in-the-way when working the helo flight controls. In my military era I would think they would have preferred the higher capacity M9, or even a 1911. It may have simply been a numbers game and they used what they had available for them. The Marine Corps rarely threw anything away if it still had a shred of serviceability left in it.

Dale

 

[grendelbean]

Here are some pictures of the grip frame stampings on Navy Victory Model V200292. I should have included them before. Better late than never I suppose.

 

[tenntex32]

Here are some pictures of the grip frame stampings on Navy Victory Model V200292. I should have included them before. Better late than never I suppose.

I know I am asking a lot, and it is a bit of a stretch, but can you rule out the 4-digit butt number "1161" being the same as the assembly number stamped on the frame/yoke mating areas? (Just to eliminate someone adding the assembly number to the grip frame for some silly reason?)

With the diamond symbol and the location of the "1161" stamp I am leaning very strongly towards it being a rework date code.

Dale

 

[DWalt]

I'd agree, it probably was returned to S&W for service work of some kind in 11/1961

 

[grendelbean]

Navy Victory Model V200929

I know I am asking a lot, and it is a bit of a stretch, but can you rule out the 4-digit butt number "1161" being the same as the assembly number stamped on the frame/yoke mating areas? (Just to eliminate someone adding the assembly number to the grip frame for some silly reason?)

With the diamond symbol and the location of the "1161" stamp I am leaning very strongly towards it being a rework date code.

Dale

No match there. The assembly number on the yoke and on the frame at the yoke is "48045" Good thought though.

 

[Absalom]

Grendelbean:

I would reiterate my previous suggestion. Let’s stop the guessing game. Since you are a SWCA member, post that photo of the 1161 in the “ask Roy” sub-forum and see whether he thinks this is a rework date.

 

[tenntex32]

Grendelbean:

I would reiterate my previous suggestion. Let’s stop the guessing game. Since you are a SWCA member, post that photo of the 1161 in the “ask Roy” sub-forum and see whether he thinks this is a rework date.

I can't see it being anything else but a rework date, especially with the diamond symbol. Now I want to know what was done to it by them.

Dale

 

[KEN L]

Here is another one to add, picked it up about a year ago. V1913xx 38. SW with a 5” bbl, flaming bomb and GHD on butt. Made in USA on right side and a large S&W logo on side plate. All matching numbers, Smith & Wesson on left side of bbl. and 38 s&w ctr on right side, address and patient date on the top.

Need the complete serial number to add to the database.

 

[kenjen]

Need the complete serial number to add to the database.

sr# 191321 it also has UNITED STATES PROPERTY on left side of top strap

 

[grendelbean]

Grendelbean:

I would reiterate my previous suggestion. Let’s stop the guessing game. Since you are a SWCA member, post that photo of the 1161 in the “ask Roy” sub-forum and see whether he thinks this is a rework date.

Done.... Thanks for the prod.

 

[TTSH]

What did I just buy?

I purchased what was supposed to be an S&W Victory .38 Special with the serial number (per the paperwork) of V931991. That does not seem to be possible from what I am reading here and reading in the Bible.

I don't have possession yet and won't for another week or two, but can anyone help with this mystery?

Methinks something is screwy here.

++++++++++

Solved! See my post below.

 

[tenntex32]

I purchased what was supposed to be an S&W Victory .38 Special with the serial number (per the paperwork) of V931991. That does not seem to be possible from what I am reading here and reading in the Bible.

I don't have possession yet and won't for another week or two, but can anyone help with this mystery?

Methinks something is screwy here.

Most likely it is a pre-Victory with Victory style finish and plain uncheckered stocks if the serial number you have provided is correct. (Then most likely it won't have a "V" in the serial number.)

Here is my pre-Victory example with red letter U.S. Navy markings...………(As you can see there is no "V" with the actual serial number of 985033.)

From a collectability standpoint they made far fewer pre-Victory wartime finish examples than actual V-prefixed Victory examples, although I doubt many collectors would affix much of a premium, if any, due to such. If it has any U.S. NAVY markings it usually would command a bit more.

I like them and generally clump them in with the actual V-prefixed Victory revolvers that came about after pre-Victory s/n 999,999 as they have the similar wartime finish and plain uncheckered stocks.

Can you provide a link with pics for the example you are purchasing?

Dale

 

[Absalom]

I purchased what was supposed to be an S&W Victory .38 Special with the serial number (per the paperwork) of V931991....
Methinks something is screwy here.

Indeed, as described it can’t be.

Either it is a pre-Victory as Dale suggests and has no legitimate V-prefix.
Or they misread the first digit which can be no higher that 8 for a Victory, but must actually be lower than that here since only a 0 or 1 could follow an 8.
Or it has only five digits and they accidentally doubled the second 9.

Or something is indeed fishy.

 

[TTSH]

Most likely it is a pre-Victory with Victory style finish and plain uncheckered stocks if the serial number you have provided is correct. (Then most likely it won't have a "V" in the serial number.)

Here is my pre-Victory example with red letter U.S. Navy markings...………(As you can see there is no "V" with the actual serial number of 985033.)

From a collectability standpoint they made far fewer pre-Victory wartime finish examples than actual V-prefixed Victory examples, although I doubt many collectors would affix much of a premium, if any, due to such. If it has any U.S. NAVY markings it usually would command a bit more.

I like them and generally clump them in with the actual V-prefixed Victory revolvers that came about after pre-Victory s/n 999,999 as they have the similar wartime finish and plain uncheckered stocks.

Can you provide a link with pics for the example you are purchasing?

Dale

Thanks Dale. Unless I am losing my mind (which is actually quite possible at my advanced age), there was a "V" in the serial number. It's the first thing I checked to make sure it was a 'real' Victory and not some refinished 4" M&P made up with a lanyard ring to look like a Victory. Where I failed miserably was not recording the entire serial number with my own eyes and heading home to check it out before buying... something I almost always do when dealing with an older S&W revolver.

No pics as of right now. It wasn't an on-line purchase.

 

[TTSH]

Indeed, as described it can’t be.

Either it is a pre-Victory as Dale suggests and has no legitimate V-prefix.
Or they misread the first digit which can be no higher that 8 for a Victory, but must actually be lower than that here since only a 0 or 1 could follow an 8.
Or it has only five digits and they accidentally doubled the second 9.

Or something is indeed fishy.

Yep. Something is wrong somewhere. The dealer is highly reputable (we've done business before) and will give me my money back in a heartbeat if it turns out not to be a 'real' Victory or has had its serial number altered or is otherwise fraudulent in any way (e.g., refinished, lanyard ring added, etc.).

Or it might just be that he read the serial number wrong. I'll find out later today.