Wad Cutters for Defence

[Forrest r]

Jacketed hbwc rule

I've shot countless 1000's of lead wc bullets in 38's, 357's, 44spl's & 44mags in 1 7/8", 2", 3," 4", 6", 7 1/2", 10", 12" & 14" bbls.

I cast my own wc with h&g #50, lyman 385495 & 429348 molds.

I also cast hbwc bullets in 44 & 38/357 and have done different tests with soft to hard alloys in short to long bbl's with mild to wild velocities in different test mediums.

A jacketed hbwc bullet has easily out performed any lead bullet (wc/hbwc) I've ever tested. The jacketed hbwc's that I use/tested are bonded not swaged. The bonding of the lead core is what makes it superior to anything I've ever seen.

I am in the process of testing a bonded core segmented hp for a 9mm, 38spl, 357, 44spl, 44mag & 45acp. I'm hoping for moreexpansion & extremely low speeds (550fps).

 

[Old TexMex]

Buffalo Bore 20C-158gr. Soft lead SWCHC

 

[keith44spl]

Jest for the hell of it..........

I shot this target back years ago...When I was in 'Fightin Trim' using wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

Two at once from the hip with a pair of five inch N frames, a 27-2 & 25-5 LC.

That left hand pulled one a lit'l high to start off...But, she settled down purty quick.

Plain ol typing paper

Now what's all this horse hockey 'bout ya can't hit nothin' without using the sights?


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Sebago Son]

http://ccjatraining.com/articles/HandgunStoppingPower.pdf

"First let's take a look at some statistics. The FBI, in the Uniform Crime Report
(UCR), tells us that most shootings - about 80% - occur in low or reduced light.
Most shootings involving police officers and civilian concealed carry permit
holders happen at a distance of less than ten feet with average distance at three
feet."

At three feet, you aren't going to be using your sights. Without sights, you aren't aiming. Without aiming, shot placement is a fantasy.

That reminds me of the story about the Statistician that drown while crossing a river that was an average of 3 feet deep....

 

[pete950]

Jest for the hell of it..........

I shot this target back years ago...When I was in 'Fightin Trim' using wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

Two at once from the hip with a pair of five inch N frames, a 27-2 & 25-5 LC.

That left hand pulled one a lit'l high to start off...But, she settled down purty quick.

Plain ol typing paper

Now what's all this horse hockey 'bout ya can't hit nothin' without using the sights?


Su Amigo,
Dave

I remember seeing right hear on this forum a video of Kieth44 point shooting a pair I think to handsom short barelled 44s. Now he looks to have some years of experiance and handles those 2 revolvers enough to know don't mess, just imagine when he was fightin trim. It men like him on the forum I sure learn a lot from. If I could only be able to hang around a while I could learn a lot more.

 

[Old TexMex]

Jest for the hell of it..........

I shot this target back years ago...When I was in 'Fightin Trim' using wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

Two at once from the hip with a pair of five inch N frames, a 27-2 & 25-5 LC.

That left hand pulled one a lit'l high to start off...But, she settled down purty quick.

Plain ol typing paper

Now what's all this horse hockey 'bout ya can't hit nothin' without using the sights?


Su Amigo,
Dave

Difference between theory and practice: In theory, practice and theory are the same, but in practice,theory and practice are way different.

 

[Forrest r]

You have some excellent thoughts, ideas & concerns racingsnake; there has always been a tradeoff between velocity, controllability & bullet performance in any snub nosed revolver.

Most hbwc bullets need to be made out of a 20 to 1 alloy minimum to stabilize in snub nosed revolvers (no more tumbling). The 20 to 1 alloy is also the minimum alloy for the bullet to stay intact & 800fps to have a consistent expansion & retain their shape/weight.

A soft jackted hbwc that has the lead bonded to metal of the jacket will open at much slower speeds, retain its weight & retain its shape because the 2 metals are fused together. The jacketed hbwc's are extremely stable & will not tumble in any snub nosed revolvers.

Some test bullets, cast 38 hbwc's, jacketed 38hbwc's, cast 44hbwc's & jacketed hbwc's.

Some jacketed hbwc's (38spl/44spl) shot out of 2" snub nosed revolvers with powder puff loads @ 550fps.

The bullet with an arrow pointing at it was shot thru a milk jug full of water that had a bowling pin sitting behind it. I dug that slug out of the bowling pin; it was buried up to the base of the bullets in the pin.

Like I said "Jacketed hbwc's rule". Their stable in any gun, can be loaded from mild to wild, fully expand @ low speeds & retain their weight.

 

[Beemer-mark]

Though often brought up by dramatic gun writers, your choice of ammunition in an otherwise justified use of deadly force will have little bearing.

How true, the corollary is that no matter how justified the opposing attorney will use anything (and I mean anything) against you.

 

[Practical]

Until "magnumitis" set in during the last half of the 20th century, 148gr of soft lead at 700fps was considered more than adequate for close range defense, for shooters who could hit their target.

Not too shabby in a 3" model 60 for knocking off small game either.

True, but modern medicine and triage did not exist.

Today, loads at this power level would likely result in nearly all gun shot victims surviving if modern medical care could be quickly be provided.

 

[Doug M.]

Modern ballistic knowledge has evolved to new directions in terms of both points of aim on the human body (better targets showing where we should aim), better training, and a better understanding of projectile performance. Most of the hard core research has been done on service caliber autopistols (9mm, 40, 45ACP, and to a lesser extent .357Sig) because that's where the volume of LE ammo purchases are. However, it is not impossible to get revolver ammo that performs as well as the typical autopistol ammo if one knows what the needs are. The sharp edges of a good WC (Black Hills likely being the default) or a good SWC are a fine choice. They do not need to be loaded real hot to have good penetration and other performance characteristics.

Medical treatment matters to the good guys, of course, but what really matters if one has to shoot someone is that they stop their actions. Whether they stop by death or some other means is not really important. Handgun ammo sucks for serious use, and if you have to shoot a determined adversary with a pistol, you are likely to have to shoot them a lot. A pistol is what one carries when a problem is not expected. If one has reason to expect a problem and cannot make arrangements to be elsewhere, a rifle is a far better choice. When I was in LE, if we thought there was any chance of a conflict, a long gun came out.

 

[scwv67]

What exactly are those, if you don't mind me asking? They look pretty neat.

I saw them being marketed a few years ago by a company called Northwest Custom Projectile in Montana. A few emails to them at the time went unanswered and their website is now down.

 

[HiCap]

A friend loads .38 standard pressure rounds for me, using a non-hp semi wad cutter. It's accurate and not too hefty in an Airweight and a piece of cake in ss J frame and a Colt DS II. Why wouldn't that 158 gr. bullet be as effective as a 140 wad cutter.

HiCap

 

[hotrod150]

A wadcutter has a full-caliber (or damn close) flat nose (meplat) for max striking power. A SWC has a flat nose, but not full caliber, so has less strking power. The SWC does have a sharp full-caliber shoulder, but depending on the exact bullet used it also has a tapered nose which seems like it would tend to push through tissue like a round nose instead of cutting through like a wadcutter. I used to handload a hardcast 148 gr DEWC for self-defense use, but switched to a soft lead SWC-HP for that little bit more bullet weight and (hopefully) some degree of expansion.

 

[HiCap]

That makes sense. My carry load is the SWHP +P, though I think the standard P would suffice. I had some wadcutters made by a gentlman with a beard who loaded the Cirillo load, but he went out of business; too bad. The old loads work fine and don't shoot low like the death ray super-duper high vel light weights do.

HiCap

 

[Nevada Ed]

I think both the 148 and 158 lead WC bullets work great in the snub nose for SD but when you put that big 158 Lhp in a 4" barrel at +P velositys it is getting near maximum penetration and I will not shoot them out of my 686 6" due to some of the bullets over penetrating in some of my test.

I ageee 100% on the softness and makeup of a lead bullet along with the velosity that it is fired which makes for a nice SD load.
Most copper plated bullets are too thick or hard to open up correctly in 2-3" revolvers with the factory velositys that are on the shelves,only a few are made for the snub nose guns that will work correctly and are usually +P ammo.......one reason the lead bullets are finding a home with the standard 38 guns.
I have yet to try a full house load of Unique with a 148gr but after reading about it all these years,I am going to give it try this year,just to see what is going on in the real world. Just going to wait a little til all the snow melts around here .

 

[smoothshooter]

Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy.

Maybe for YOU.

I know of several defensive shootings by both law-enforcement and ordinary people over the years where the potential victim placed one or more shots right on target with a handgun, occasionally at considerable distance.

 

[Frank V]

Shot placement should be a priority!

 

[Groo01]

While wad cutters were a reasonable choice "back in the day", there has been so much bullet development since then....that I think one can readily find better alternatives! Why go back to the stone age???

Groo here
Because , until we get energy rifles, we are still just chucking
rocks.
Large ones at slow speeds, small ones at high speeds.
The basic results are still the same.
Once you do the required amount of damage, the extra is just that ,
Extra.