Was He defending Himself or His property?

[MP1518]

You are having a cup of coffee with Your friend and notice a couple of guys are standing by Your bike and it looks like they are trying to remove Your radio.

You tell them to get lost.

If they decide to attack You , and You fight back (HARD) , are You defending Yourself? or Your property?

(based on a real incident)

 

[arjay]

If they attack you it's self defense.

 

[MP1518]

If they attack you it's self defense.

Thats what I thought.

 

[slfree]

Another thing I like about Texas. If it were late at night, deadly force is authorized to defend property. As long as you believe there was no other way to stop the bad guy from leaving with your property.
And before you ask. No it does not apply to the repo of a car if you know you are behind on your payments.
In answer to your question I'd claim self defense too.

 

[finesse_r]

Another thing I like about Texas. If it were late at night, deadly force is authorized to defend property. As long as you believe there was no other way to stop the bad guy from leaving with your property.
And before you ask. No it does not apply to the repo of a car if you know you are behind on your payments.
In answer to your question I'd claim self defense too.

In Texas, it does not have to be "late" at night, just has to be night time. Exactly when day ends and night begins is a question for the courts, but I would expect it would have to actually be dark and not just at dusk in most courts and with most juries.

 

[venomballistics]

its SD the moment they make the decision to attack.
they could have ignored him, or beat a retreat. The escalation to assault is on them

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

In Texas, it does not have to be "late" at night, just has to be night time.

You mean I can't use deadly force to prevent theft of my property in the daytime? Now I'm confused.

 

[SMSgt]

Pretty simple . . .

If they're beating the heck out of you and not your bike, you're defending yourself.

If they're beating the heck our of your bike and not you, you're defending your property.

If they're beating the heck out of you and your bike, you'll be too busy defending yourself to be concerned about your bike.

 

[jlanecole]

You mean I can't use deadly force to prevent theft of my property in the daytime? Now I'm confused.

That's right...

"§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury."

 

[the ringo kid]

You mean I can't use deadly force to prevent theft of my property in the daytime? Now I'm confused.

Yes you can. I remember when Perry signed it into law which was around 2006-2007--anyway, the D.A for Nueces County was on every TV station and said he fully supported this new law (I do too) and said that a person here can use what force deemed necessary to stop someone from violating their famiy and property--be it in the home, out in their yards or even in the street.

 

[hotrod150]

I know I'm a damn yankee but there's a couple things I don't get...
1) why is it OK to use deadly force to defend property at night-- but not in the daytime?
2) what are you protecting land FROM? Being dug up and carried away?
The first urge may be to shoot them when someone is stealing your car (or whatever), personally I wouldn't want to carry the burden of killing someone (even a lowlife criminal) around for the rest of my life for the sake of "stuff". IMHO if you can kill someone (even in defense of your life) and NOT be troubled by it afterward, there's something wrong with your head.

 

[mc5aw]

If the bike is somehow destroyed by the BGs in the process of their attack, then it's vehicular homicide.

 

[okav8tor]

It seems to me if you were attacked trying to stop a robbery of your property it would be self defense.

 

[Poodle Soup]

It seems to me if you were attacked trying to stop a robbery of your property it would be self defense.

Yes and no. If you ran up and shoved the guy.... he defends him self, you shoot him...... hope you have a good prison in mind if it was on video.

You say "GET THE 'F' AWAY FROM MY BIKE" and he comes at you... thats the other side.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

It seems to me if you were attacked trying to stop a robbery of your property it would be self defense.

I'm with you on this one. As long as you didn't draw or threaten when trying to stop the theft, you're in the clear when they attack.

 

[Comrad]

Let them have the bike, is property really worth risking your life for? That's what insurance is for.

 

[TexasArmed]

I know I'm a damn yankee but there's a couple things I don't get...
1) why is it OK to use deadly force to defend property at night-- but not in the daytime?
2) what are you protecting land FROM? Being dug up and carried away?
The first urge may be to shoot them when someone is stealing your car (or whatever), personally I wouldn't want to carry the burden of killing someone (even a lowlife criminal) around for the rest of my life for the sake of "stuff". IMHO if you can kill someone (even in defense of your life) and NOT be troubled by it afterward, there's something wrong with your head.

Well your personal vehicle is part of your castle in Texas.
So it would not matter whether day or night, and especially if you are in the vehicle you have the absolute right to shoot anyone who is breaking anything to get inside the vehicle.
If I were not willing to stop someone from taking my vehicle,
I probably would not carry at all. Nothing wrong with my head, but I am not going to be a sheep for anyone. They wants me or my stuff then they need to be prepared to pay the price. The only thing at all that is regretful about it is
how much you may have to spend to pay legal fees. Of course having never owned a bike I don't know if a bike meets the definition of vehicle under Texas Law. They do tag them?

 

[TexasArmed]

Another thing I like about Texas. If it were late at night, deadly force is authorized to defend property. As long as you believe there was no other way to stop the bad guy from leaving with your property.
And before you ask. No it does not apply to the repo of a car if you know you are behind on your payments.
In answer to your question I'd claim self defense too.

Actually there have been cases like this in Texas where repo guys have gotten shot. Several years ago petitions were being circulated to get laws changed in Texas. However there is a very simple solution to that problem. If the repo people want to get the vehicle a writ of possession can be obtained from the sheriff's dept and no problem getting the vehicle. The problem arises when the repo guy does not want to spend the money for getting the writ, and wants to grab the vehicle. If it is at night whether it is behind in payments or not, the owner of the vehicle might jump to a
reasonable conclusion that someone was trying to steal their vehicle. If I were a repo guy I woud get the writ and pay the charge. But I am not a lawyer, nor a repo guy.

 

[amazingflapjack]

We have "stand your ground" in Florida. And as far as the "legal expense, etc," if a DA is silly enough to prosecute me on something like this, then he can pay the bills; I'm not going to pay for his political aspirations. Let him consider the political ramifications of trying to railroad an honest citizen protecting his property. I let the Lord handle this stuff for me, we've been in a courtroom together before. Flapjack.

 

[Ranger514]

Let them have the bike, is property really worth risking your life for? That's what insurance is for.

I guess it depends on where and how you were raised.

 

[sipowicz]

I'm sure in Texas, cloudy counts as darkness....

 

[S&WForty]

Let them have the bike, is property really worth risking your life for? That's what insurance is for.

Some property, wheeled or otherwise, cannot be replaced with any sum of money.

 

[TexasArmed]

Guess the criminals who come to Texas ought to understand,
is my property worth the criminal risking their life for, because its what it may cost them.

Lots of insurance policies have a $500 deduction clause. Guess if they came to rob you every day and you let them have it, those deductibles would add up, and at some point your insurance might go up. Just not inclined myself to allow a criminal to walk away intact if I am there.

 

[bp231986]

Call the police and have them deal with it.

 

[hotrod150]

We have "stand your ground" in Florida. And as far as the "legal expense, etc," if a DA is silly enough to prosecute me on something like this, then he can pay the bills; I'm not going to pay for his political aspirations. Let him consider the political ramifications of trying to railroad an honest citizen protecting his property. I let the Lord handle this stuff for me, we've been in a courtroom together before. Flapjack.

The Lord helps those who help themselves. If you wanna go to court to face some sort of murder or manslaughter charge with just yourself or a public defender (think low bidder) as your only legal defense, God help you- you'll need it. Better take the whole thing very seriously-- you wouldn't be the first honest citizen to be convicted on what most of us would consider trumped-up charges.

 

[TexasArmed]

The Lord helps those who help themselves. If you wanna go to court to face some sort of murder or manslaughter charge with just yourself or a public defender (think low bidder) as your only legal defense, God help you- you'll need it. Better take the whole thing very seriously-- you wouldn't be the first honest citizen to be convicted on what most of us would consider trumped-up charges.

I figure it only takes one juror to stop a conviction, that is one out of 12. The criminals better think twice before they steal something in Texas. Lots of them find out the hard way. As for me, I am already bankrupting the VA with my medical care, a life term would not be that long and if the prison system wanted to spend lots more money taking care of my medical problems fine, and also an additional $50,000 per year for my disabled daughter. But I won't be a victim and I will stop anyone from taking my property. When you cross that old red river, Hoss, Texas law is king. As for other states, I won't live in one where I cannot protect my property. Furthermore, there isn't anyone who is going to get away with outlawing guns in Texas, nor is anyone going to collect them. As for bicycles, I still have not researched to determine whether those are protected by castle doctrine or not. I would if I owned one. Both my vehicles are automobiles and they are as well as the property in my home.
If the criminals wants to break thru a double bolted door, he is asking for his own funeral. I open up when the door starts coming down, if I am inside. If not then my insurance will have to cover what gets stolen. Most cases like these get no billed in Texas, where someone is attempting to steal property. Lots of people don't like our laws in Texas, but very few of them have been able to get any of them changed. Most people who don't like our laws in Texas don't like the laws providing for protecting property. I like them.

 

[jlanecole]

I think there is some confusion about exactly what the Castle Doctrine does in Texas. It does not give you the right to use deadly force if someone is stealing your car, boat, bike, whatever, during the day. Read my post above that quotes the Texas law governing deadly force to protect property.

Texas SB 378 (2007) extended the presumed "duty to retreat" from just your habitation, to vehicles, workplaces, etc. It also provides some civil immunity if you are involved in a justified shooting in those locations. Here's a link to the bill: Texas Legislature Online - 80(R) Text for SB 378

 

[Road Rat]

IMHO if you can kill someone (even in defense of your life) and NOT be troubled by it afterward, there's something wrong with your head.

I'm sure everyone would be "troubled" by it. However, the alternative is you are DEAD............no contest!

 

[TexasArmed]

I think there is some confusion about exactly what the Castle Doctrine does in Texas. It does not give you the right to use deadly force if someone is stealing your car, boat, bike, whatever, during the day. Read my post above that quotes the Texas law governing deadly force to protect property.

Texas SB 378 (2007) extended the presumed "duty to retreat" from just your habitation, to vehicles, workplaces, etc. It also provides some civil immunity if you are involved in a justified shooting in those locations. Here's a link to the bill: Texas Legislature Online - 80(R) Text for SB 378

Like I said, a life time for me is not a long time, the cost to the State for the care of my daughter 24/7 is over $50,000 per year. I will defend me and my property. So if a criminal wants to gamble with his life let him. That's before they start adding for the cost of my medical care. I intend on surrendering nothing to criminals if I can stop them and will use whatever force is necessary to do that. True, if they can
get 12 jurors to convict then it may happen. But there is risk of that any time you make the decision to get a CHL and carry a gun. I don't do neighborhood watches, for anyone else but I can and will defend my life, my family and my property.

 

[slfree]

In Texas, it does not have to be "late" at night, just has to be night time. Exactly when day ends and night begins is a question for the courts, but I would expect it would have to actually be dark and not just at dusk in most courts and with most juries.

We were taught in cop school back in the '80s that the courts of Texas generally held that for deadly force after 10:00PM was considered night. That was then. At this point in MY life I can't concieve of any property that is worth the life of a human.