Weighing the options to lighten one's wallet

Flipside

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It seems that today's market has too many options for firearms enthusiasts...

Especially those that want to carry their protection with them all the time...

Here, let me illustrate some of my BASIC considerations:

What caliber, weight, bullet type?
Revolver vs. Automatic?
How many rounds?
Steel vs. Stainless Steel? -or- Alloy vs. Polymer?
Leather, Kydex or 'Mexican' (I hope not! :eek:)

Yes, I realize these considerations can be contentious, and rightfully so. Everyone has their own particular needs, limitations and requirements. So, I would expect that there will be differences between users. Perhaps that's why there are so many options? Maybe...

I'll share the experience and path that I took to get to a point where I made a buying decision. Maybe it'll help you make yours? Possibly, the responses and other perspectives that will follow will help as well? In the end, it is YOUR decision!

My first step was to try to eliminate as many variables as possible. Where I started was: cost was no object. Why? Well, let me ask you this question: "What is YOUR life worth?"

Next, I did some research on what round to use. I did this on line, in person with various enthusiasts, and with a number of professionals like doctors, LEO's and the like. To sum it up, NO ONE WOULD WANT TO BE IN FRONT OF A FIREARM WHEN IT GOES OFF.

Longer story: the FBI did some testing, various 'back yard ballistics tests' were done – some with blue jeans and wet phone books, barrels of water, etc. Some even went exotic with specially formulated jels and high speed photography. Do yourself a favor, and check it out for yourself... Consider it to be part of the experience helping YOU make YOUR decision. In conclusion, I found reports of Daisy BB guns killing people (rare, but look for yourself) and some pretty awesome videos of a .577 T-Rex that would likely do the same thing, albeit somewhat more reliably I'd imagine.

Somewhere in between those ends of the spectrum lies what will work for your particular needs...

Personally, I'm not too worried about Zombies. I therefore chose a more conventional threat: the two legged Homo Sapien. I wanted something that was readily available pretty much WHEREVER you went in the USA.

With this view, the 'boutique' ammo that's out there was immediately off the list. Yes, this includes 22 Magnums and 45 Gaps... I believe that I can find 22LR, 9mm, 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 40 S&W and 45 ACP pretty much anywhere, so that was my foundation I set to build on.

22LR is really attractive for its price point and availability. You can also pack a LOT of rounds in a relatively small space. A Beretta Bobcat is an attractive platform for this round, but in my experience it has an appetite for a certain load: CCI 22LR Mini Mags. Further, it's not a very reliable load for stopping power. So, it didn't make my cut.

45 ACP has a history of performance that is staggering. There's a reason why the '45' has the reputation it has earned. Here again, feel free to do your own investigation. You'll be amazed at what you find. However, it didn't make my cut. Why? The 1911 platform probably the most common auto loading pistol platform in history, but I don’t like the ergonomics or how the pistol feels in my hands. Further, a more compact, packable pistol can’t carry any more rounds than a revolver, so what’s the point? Off the list…

9mm and 40 S&W are incredibly common now-a-days... Most every LEO agency uses one or the other, maybe even both. To my surprise, I found that the 9mm was born for many reasons, but the one that surprised me the most was that it was designed for warfare where it is more likely to WOUND than KILL please see this post. The idea is that if you wound an enemy soldier, you take two or three off the battle field: 1 wounded soldier, and 1 or 2 to carry them out of danger. Brilliant!

Please don’t misunderstand my thoughts here… This isn’t about going Rambo on someone. It is however about a real life and death scenario. If I’m ever in a situation where I would need to use deadly force (and I hope that I never am) I want the force that I use to be as effective as possible. ‘Wounding’ doesn’t fit into this category. STOPPING the activity causing my response is. I hope you can see how serious this whole thing is. If you ever need to defend yourself, life or death IS at the core of the dilemma. Plan ahead, and choose wisely…

Because the 9mm is DESIGNED TO WOUND, it’s off my list for that reason alone. Please see this post for details.

So, now we're on to the 40 S&W... Similar in many ways to the 9mm, but with more "oomph". Also very common round to find, and lots of options for platforms to launch it from. This one makes to the next round of consideration.

The 38 Special and 357 Magnum are a little unusual in this comparison... They're designed to be used in a revolver (save for a few very uncommon auto loading platforms like the Desert Eagle in 357...), and they're more of an 'old school' round. For nearly forever, the LEO community fielded revolvers in 38 Specials or 357 Magnum. Then, somewhere along the way, the higher firepower capacity of the automatic loading pistol (more rounds in a typical automatic's magazine than a cylinder of a revolver) became in vogue. No matter, years of history and performance of these revolver based rounds led to them making the cut as well.

Now, choosing between what round to use from those making the cut.

My Dad was a dyed in the wool gun nut. Collector, shooter, hunter... Had decorations, awards, medals, trophies, and pretty much knew it all, had been there, done that, and even had a few things in his history that he couldn’t talk about. He taught me much of what I know now, and made me aware that no matter how much you know there’s still a lot to learn.

He was a wheel gun guy… Like a typical kid, I liked autos.

I said I appreciated autos for their ability to carry more ammo per load. Dad countered that it's not how many you carry, but where you put them. Chalk one up for Dad...

I maintained that I liked autos because they were easier and faster to load. Dad liked revolvers because if you had a dud or jam, all you had to do was to pull the trigger again for a fresh round (needs to be Double Action to do this!). No hocus-pocus of clearing the round by cycling the slide with TWO HANDS. He even demonstrated how he could get THREE or more (!) rounds on target while I was clearing my auto. Dad 2, me 0.

Okay... lesson learned. Revolvers have a certain advantage in the hands of a skilled, capable user. No doubts there. Still, I was convinced Autos were for me.

Even though various demonstrations and perspectives were fresh in my mind, and Dad had literally shot down all my arguments, I still began my shooting life with the 40 S&W. I began collecting hardware to utilize that round. My thoughts were varied, and all based upon the plan of using ‘good stuff to get good results’. I bought pistols from HK (Tac 40, P7M10) and a Kahr MK40. I bought high quality ammo... I practiced... And I was comfortable and confident. So, even if zombies did attack, I was ready.

Then, I met a woman that challenged my decision.

She was new to firearms, and wanted to know everything about everything. I got to relive the whole ‘just starting out, making decisions’ experience again. I found myself, after shooting for 30+ years, changing my mind about the choices I had made earlier.

Yes, I’m now a convert.

I like wheel guns.

There I said it!

What happened?

Well, it was an experience that was a combination of things gone wrong all at once that opened my eyes. 3 out of 10 rounds in a single magazine failed to fire in my most trusted P7M10. Even though this is the first time it ever happened, the reasons why are moot. The fact that it happened is all that it took for me to revisit my previous choices.

I had already decided that the 38 / 357 Mag round was a contender, so I began to look at options for what to use for a launcher.

Dad had passed a number of years ago already, and I was honored to be the caretaker of his treasures. They’re all heirlooms in my view, and not something that I would consider for personal use. However, they were all wheel guns. The old man knew his stuff, and I had now come full circle. I imagine he’s smiling wherever he is…

So, now that I’m convinced that revolvers are the answer, I had some choices to make. I was settled on a 357 Magnum… It could launch 38 Specials, or 357 Magnum loads from the same pistol, so the versatility is very attractive. Further, the reputation of the 357 in particular is very admirable.

Colt’s are nice, so are Smith & Wesson’s. Ruger, Taurus and others are out there as well… What to do?!

Colt made a nice revolver, no doubt. Problem is they don’t anymore. What is out there is crazy expensive, and while beautiful, not something that I would consider for every day attire.

Ultimately, I decided to go the route of Smith & Wesson. Ruger and Taurus simply “didn’t do it for me.” It’s not meant to be a lame excuse to simplify things: they just didn’t feel right in MY hands. Sure, S&W, just like any manufacturer has had some bumps in the road, and not all their stuff is for everyone. Still, I was able to find what I was looking for, and am happy with. Your experience may be different – and I hope it is, for you! At the end of the day, no matter what others have said, or what they believe, I truly believe you have to do what is good for you and what you believe.

After all my other decisions led me to this point of choosing a platform, I wanted low maintenance and reliability. Initially, that was found in a 686. Beautiful Stainless Steel construction, solid design (it’s a L-frame that came about because – as I understand it - the K-frames weren’t up to the constant use of full power 357 Magnum loads) and just felt good in my hands.

I bought one in 6”, 4” and then bought a 617 to train with. The 617 is for all practical purposes a 686 but chambered in 22LR. Same feel, handling and action – just less bang. I was now in heaven.

Except for one thing…

The 686 is massive. As in HEAVY. As in HUGE. As in, WOW, my back hurts carrying this thing all day.

Yeah, I have no doubts that it would do the job I intended, but there must be some other way?!

Well, thanks to technology, some creativity, and some engineering, S&W found a way to answer my call. A little Titanium and some exotic alloying of Aluminum and another uncommon element, Scandium, and presto! A little pocket rocket whose price is inversely proportional to its weight (this means it weighs almost nothing, but costs a lot). There were other, similar options from S&W with varying combinations of materials and construction (442, 642, M&P versions, etc.) but I decided on the 340PD (S&W #103061).

Now, why spend HUNDREDS of dollars more for this Titanium variant rather than the other S&W options? That was a hard call for me to make… Ultimately, it came down to weight. Yes, it’s only ~2 ounces (OUNCES!) lighter than the nearest steel cylinder’d competition, but that was the clincher for me. I understood that less weight will mean greater recoil to the shooter, and the pistol will also be more difficult to control because of it…

The plain and simple truth (to me anyway) is that the less obtrusive the pistol is, the more comfortable it will be to carry, all the time, everywhere. Further, I don’t EXPECT to need to use it. It’s not a range gun, where I EXPECT to launch 50-200 rounds at a crack. If it’s going to be used, it’s going to be in a crisis, and I MAY unload all 5 cylinders.

ONE time.

Honestly, if someone needs more than 5 rounds to STOP their assailant, they already failed before they even drew their weapon. Planning, practice, and prevention – in that order – should have happened LONG BEFORE they drew.

So, the end of this long story?

Cost is no object? Check.
Loading being carried sufficient to do the job? Check.
What material being used? Low / no maintenance – exotic stuff for sure! Check, check, check!
Leather, Kydex or Mexican? None of ‘em for me! I’m going with Nylon! Uncle Mikes, #3 pocket holster!

Enjoy your journey to find your grail... Whatever your choice may be.
 
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You didnt write all that for free, did you?

:)

I was banned from the kitchen, the game wasn't on, and it's the beginning of the season of giving... So, I started tapping. Sorry if it's kinda wordy, but I was trying to make it a story as much as informative.

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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Well, I really, really liked it! I just have a sick sense of humor. Keep it up, thats how I got my start! Happy bird day! By the way, I was raised in wisconsin too.
 
You forgot one thing. The cost of quality training and practice. ;)

Oh, and a good gun safe.:eek:

Great points to add!

In my journey, I found that there are courses and/or trainers for pretty much whatever you want. The price of admission is steep, but like many other 'costs', you get what you pay for. Practice can be a cheap as snap caps, or as expensive as you want it to be. I would encourage the practice of using your actual carry load from time to time.

Safes? I own one that came from Brown Safe Company. It's actually rated for security. The riggers that moved it in literally told me not to call them to move it out. They considered it to be a 'permanent' addition to the home. :D
 
My take.........

At first I cued the post up...........What the ..........? I have time, but a book??????? Well, if it's this long, it MUST have something to say. Settle in with a fresh cup of liquid and get to reading. Yup, a bit lengthy, but many points covered and a few good memories and points awarded to Dad. I smiled as I was reading as I thought of my M&P 360 that I drag around as a result of my decision and there it is in print. Good choice and Good day.......................
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"Because the 9mm is DESIGNED TO WOUND, it’s off my list for that reason alone."

I'd like the citation on this one, as time permits.
 
Next, I did some research on what round to use. I did this on line, in person with various enthusiasts, and with a number of professionals like doctors, LEO's and the like. To sum it up, NO ONE WOULD WANT TO BE IN FRONT OF A FIREARM WHEN IT GOES OFF.

Flipside.. I have known 2 people in my life that would walk into a gun and whip up on you if you didn't shoot. One never saw the wrong gun and died an early natural death. The other one walked into the wrong gun and he died an early death. There are people that you can't bluff and I feel better carrying a real gun. Larry
 
"Because the 9mm is DESIGNED TO WOUND, it’s off my list for that reason alone."

I'd like the citation on this one, as time permits.

Sorry, don't have a specific citation to foot note for you...

This tidbit came from two different sources that I personally hold in high regard. One is a Marine (no longer active as he lost an arm in Iraq - but that's a different story. BTW, as I understand it, once you're a Marine, you're always a Marine :).), the other is a retired Deputy Sheriff, and once served in the Army.

I consider thier comments to be genuine, and I have no reason to question them. Why? The info they shared was *identical*, even though they don't know each other - they even live hundreds of miles apart. Maybe because they were both trained by the .gov? Who knows?

As an aside, I have no intentions of getting into a battle about what is 'the best'. For me, it's personal. I believe that each user has an obligation to do thier own research, formulate their own beliefs and sleep well because THEY have THEIR own level of confidence in their choices. In fact, if you search for comparisons of 9mm vs. 45 (in any flavor), you'll find pros and cons for each.

And, that's without getting into bullet geometry, type and weight... Oooh, I'm getting a headache already... My post was intended to be about my own personal journey, and I intentionally tried to make things about MY own choices and why *I* made them - and hopefully encourage others to make their own, informed choices...

Before I move on however, I did find a report about an on duty officer that was involved in an exchange with an offender. The wounded officer unloaded his 357 into the offender. The officer perished (I believe it was from a single small caliber - like a 25 cal - wound to the neck where he bled out), but the offender survived.

A number of factors, including body fat, and angle of penetration figured in... The offender was so obese that the bullets that hit home didn't penetrate as far as needed to hit vital parts, and the angle of penetration was not 'ideal' - more like 30-45 degrees from horizontal.

I believe that it's self evident that no one wants to be in front of any firearm when it goes off. Caliber, bullet type, powder loading - whatever - DOESN'T MATTER if the shot effects anything critical to sustaining life. This is evidenced by some cases where a shot with a simple BB gun caused a death. Google "bb gun kills child" for more info...

Obviouly, shot placement (that's where the training and practice comes in) is important if you want to maximize the effectiveness of WHATEVER it is that you're putting down range.

Interestingly, in America, the 22LR has the reputuation of being the most likely to mortally wound... My source? A friend that's a doctor, lousy poker player, and as anti-gun as it gets (he's from Chicago...). Yes, his profession is putting the parts back together, and GSW's are part of his job.

The whole point that I'm trying to make is that the Internet is a fantastic source of information. However, many times, the info is worth what you paid for it... I'm still an old schooler, and prefer to get my info from 1:1 interaction with people. Maybe we could get together some day, and I'll introduce you to some of the folks I've come to meet and get to know? IM me if you're interested. :)
 
At first I cued the post up...........What the ..........? I have time, but a book??????? Well, if it's this long, it MUST have something to say. Settle in with a fresh cup of liquid and get to reading. Yup, a bit lengthy, but many points covered and a few good memories and points awarded to Dad. I smiled as I was reading as I thought of my M&P 360 that I drag around as a result of my decision and there it is in print. Good choice and Good day.......................
IMG_2055.jpg
IMG_1398-1.jpg
IMG_1390.jpg

Hope the beverage was a good one!
 
Next, I did some research on what round to use. I did this on line, in person with various enthusiasts, and with a number of professionals like doctors, LEO's and the like. To sum it up, NO ONE WOULD WANT TO BE IN FRONT OF A FIREARM WHEN IT GOES OFF.

Flipside.. I have known 2 people in my life that would walk into a gun and whip up on you if you didn't shoot. One never saw the wrong gun and died an early natural death. The other one walked into the wrong gun and he died an early death. There are people that you can't bluff and I feel better carrying a real gun. Larry

Larry,

Thanks for the comments.

You're right about bluffing.

But, that's the burden of CCW, isn't it? A big load to carry. If you don't act... or, if you do act...

For me, it's simple. If I'm going to draw, it's for one reason. To give you a hint... It's not because I'm bluffing.

Now on the other hand, if you're dissin' my choice of a 340PD... Well, that's cool with me, and exactly the point of my post. If you feel that a <12 oz pistol with 5 rounds of (pretty slow relative to a 6" barrel) 357 Magum won't be sufficient for your needs, then by all means: do what's best for you! I know people that carry an entire arsenal on their person at any given time. It's what works for them that matters most. :)
 
flipside................

just get your self a good quality S&W "J" frame snub nose .38 special and practice: single handed grip (60% weak hand; 40% strong hand), DAO, 8 X 11 target at 30 feet, using DEWC @ 825fps. do this until you are very proficient. the rest will take care of itself.
 
flipside................

just get your self a good quality S&W "J" frame snub nose .38 special and practice: single handed grip (60% weak hand; 40% strong hand), DAO, 8 X 11 target at 30 feet, using DEWC @ 825fps. do this until you are very proficient. the rest will take care of itself.

That's exactly what I did (albeit with a S&W 340PD that can accomodate 38's or 357's), and am thrilled with the decision!

Good suggestion for practicing with the weak hand too.

I also prefer 20' (or less at times) and paper plates, as well as using 38's while practicing. Much more tolerable for longer sessions. However, my carry load is the 357 Winchester Silver Tip. I have a bunch for my family of 686's, and they've never failed to go bang.
 
To my surprise, I found that the 9mm was born for many reasons, but the one that surprised me the most was that it was designed for warfare where it is more likely to WOUND than KILL.

I'm sure this bit of historical nonsense would be a total surprise to Herr Luger who developed the 9mm cartridge in 1904 because the German Army refused to accept the original 7.65mm Luger cartridge as too weak. Borchardt
 
Citations and ammendments

Because of the hornets nest that got stirred up here, I went ahead and did some follow up with my sources. And for those that require citations, I found some to help add clarity. Please note that my original post has been ammended to reflect these updates:

1) NATO's compliace with The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III relates to the concept "The civilized soldier when shot recognizes that he is wounded and knows that the sooner he is attended to the sooner he will recover. He lies down on his stretcher and is taken off the field to his ambulance, where he is dressed or bandaged.". These citations support the idea of a wounded soldier being removed from the battlefield effectively removes at least 2 (more likely 3) soldiers from the field of engagement.
2) The closing statement of this report states, "Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

While these citations do not directly validate the information that I conveyed, they do support the intent. I have ammended the 'designed to wound' statements to redirect the reader to see this post. My sources stand by the statements they made: it's what they received during training, and it does make sense. Wound the enemy, and you take them out of battle, along with those 'rescuing' the wounded.
 
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I'm sure this bit of historical nonsense would be a total surprise to Herr Luger who developed the 9mm cartridge in 1904 because the German Army refused to accept the original 7.65mm Luger cartridge as too weak. Borchardt

If I had a dollar for every time I heard this hooey (and the 5.56 one that goes with it) repeated at the gun store counter, I would be rich!

The ones who spew that bs are usually the same ones that think the .40S&W is some kind of magical merchant of death caliber. The thing that people need to remember is that handgun calibers are all, I repeat all, poor man stoppers. Even the .357 magnum doesn't live up to the hype of its effectiveness until you get into the 4" barrel guns or longer. Sub 4" barrel and the difference between it and 9mm are minimal at best.

We don't carry handguns cause they're the most effective, we carry them because they're convenient and practical, and with proper training and mindset will get the job done if we do our part.

I think he's failing to understand that the Military is limited to ball ammo which has a more wounding factor than stopping factor. We, unless you live in NJ or other Commie gun law states, can own, possess, and carry modern hollow point defensive ammo. Sadly, our troops can not.

The 9mm, with a proven load like the 124 grain Gold Dot +P+ or Winchester Ranger T-127 grain +P+, is nothing to sneeze at, and when combined with a 4" barrel is more effective than .38spl or .357mag out of a snubbie.

BBTI - 357 Mag

BBTI - 38 Special

BBTI - 9mm Luger
 
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