Weird Sigma Discovery?

SAMPO

SAMPO

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Was out cleaning the SW9VE and noticed that the trigger spring looked as if it were fouled up with an excessive amount of gunk. So I dropped the pin and proceeded to remove the relevant pieces, trigger/trigger bar, slide stop/release, locking block... When I finally had everything taken apart I realized that it was not gunk but what seemingly looks like a Cotton Ball! It was shoved inside the spring, every time the spring was extended little bits of fabric would stick out from between the coils...needless to say this was weird, so I took a pin/tweezers and removed the little cotton ball. To my amazement the trigger pull is now significantly easier on the booger hook and the trigger pull no longer feels spongy, it left if feeling smooth and crisp. Oh well, here are some pics...
SigmaCotton.jpg
 
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I think that cotton ball is original equipment and suppose to go inside the spring (my Sigma has one)
The fact that the trigger got better was probably that the cotton ball was not installed properly from the beginning. I don't know what that cotton does in it's original configuration.
I'd suggest giving S&W a call if for no other reason that it might affect safety issues and could result in them giving you a trigger job (free) in the process. I had mine done on their dime and and the improvement in the trigger was fantastic.
 
I did not think that S&W issued cottonballs anymore!
Randy
 
I recall seeing a review of the earlier Sigmas.

Smith & Wesson DESGINED the spring with a piece of cotton/fabric/cardboard material INSIDE the spring.

I think it is intentionally present to provide a dampening action on the springs motion.

I would examin another Sigma in a Gun shop.

I predict you will find it.

The article was a review of a dip gun cleaning systems that washed out the material from the sigma's spring. The writer commented that sigmas were not compatible with the system when he was somehow informed of this ingenious spring dampening S&W idea...
 
Originally posted by Practical:
I recall seeing a review of the earlier Sigmas.

Smith & Wesson DESGINED the spring with a piece of cotton/fabric/cardboard material INSIDE the spring.

I think it is intentionally present to provide a dampening action on the springs motion.

I would examin another Sigma in a Gun shop.

I predict you will find it.

The article was a review of a dip gun cleaning systems that washed out the material from the sigma's spring. The writer commented that sigmas were not compatible with the system when he was somehow informed of this ingenious spring dampening S&W idea...
Click to expand...

Yes, you will find it, because that is how they are made. Not sure if removing it would cause any safety issues, but that is how they are made.
 
I thought the F-series Sigma had a felt damping strip in its prototype. I haven't heard of any cotton balls in the FCG of the Sigma or any other pistol.
 
Originally posted by SAMPO:
Was out cleaning the SW9VE and noticed that the trigger spring looked as if it were fouled up with an excessive amount of gunk. So I dropped the pin and proceeded to remove the relevant pieces, trigger/trigger bar, slide stop/release, locking block... When I finally had everything taken apart I realized that it was not gunk but what seemingly looks like a Cotton Ball! It was shoved inside the spring, every time the spring was extended little bits of fabric would stick out from between the coils...needless to say this was weird, so I took a pin/tweezers and removed the little cotton ball. To my amazement the trigger pull is now significantly easier on the booger hook and the trigger pull no longer feels spongy, it left if feeling smooth and crisp. Oh well, here are some pics...
SigmaCotton.jpg
Click to expand...

What you removed is a felt pad placed in there to "modulate spring vibration," according to the original testing done by Frank James. This is apparently thought to be a good idea by S&W as it is in the M&P trigger return spring as well.

Removal of it will apparently cause wild spring vibration and modulation and your spring will break in short order thereby preventing your trigger from returning to its forward position.

When Frank James tested the SIGMA, hot pistols were dunked in water to cool them, and the felt pads got wet and disintegrated. Shooting the pistols thereafter resulted in the springs breaking - repeatedly and much to the surprise of the S&W PR guy present for the test of those SIGMAs.

You should not remove parts from your pistol that are put there by the factory.

If you use the pistol for self-defense you must immediately send it in for warranty repair. This situation is urgent and I cannot overemphasize the importance of the sudden way in which this problem will manifest itself - what I mean is the spring will break, completely without warning, and probably when you least expect it.

Send your pistol back to S&W. This is not something you can fix by just shoving the removed piece back in with your "tweezers."

Did you think that the "cotton ball" as you describe it just magically appeared in the middle of that coil spring?
 
Do I have to send the firearm in or will S & W send me a spring if I call and order one? Thanks for all the input... Didn't really know what to make of the felt damper, that's why I posted here. Why don't they use a tougher spring from the get go?
Oh well, I had already emailed S&W concerning the spring/felt and was waiting on a reply, guess I got my answer.
 
The design sounds like a disaster that will unfold on S&W gradually in the future.

If S&W cannot make the spring work right, any damping material they have to insert should at least be unaffected by water or lubricant which inevitably will get in there. Plastic would be better than "felt" aka "a cotton ball."
 
Originally posted by S&W Rover:
The design sounds like a disaster that will unfold on S&W gradually in the future.

If S&W cannot make the spring work right, any damping material they have to insert should at least be unaffected by water or lubricant which inevitably will get in there. Plastic would be better than "felt" aka "a cotton ball."
Click to expand...

+1
I absolutely agree S&W Rover, it should also be noted that I adore this firearm and consider it probably one of the "best bang for buck" deals out there...
 
Cotton balls used in an automatic pistol? It sounds like S&W found out late in the design cycle that this spring was vulnerable, and used the cotton as a 'quick fix' to prevent a delay in the product introduction.
No doubt some enterprising aftermarket companies will soon be offering high performance versions of the cotton ball, made with 100% Pima cotton or Merino wool.
 
It's not a design error. The M&P uses the same damper. It's also not a matter of making a "stronger" spring. It's due to the location of the spring. It's location at the trigger results in additional harmonics being introduced in the spring. But the location also gives the S&W pistols an improved tactile feel to the trigger compared to a Glock. The Glock trigger feels more spongy and disconnected compared to the S&W designs. S&W opted for better trigger feel but had to deal with spring harmonics. The felt is a simple fix. As long as people don't go messing around with things that they don't know about
icon_wink.gif
 
I am not saying that it was a design error, just an interesting one. Personally, trigger feel/pull on my Glock is 10x better than that of my Sigma. That being said, I find no qualms with the trigger feel/pull of the Sigma. In the interest of further educating myself I removed the "cotton ball" when I saw it protruding from the end of the spring, not really knowing what it was. I did not however, wake up and say to my self..."what can I go messing around with today that I know little about!"

Don't worry I cut the tip off a Q-Tip and replaced the dampener, so now I'm back to normal ...
icon_wink.gif
 
Did you think that the "cotton ball" as you describe it just magically appeared in the middle of that coil spring?
Click to expand...

As long as people don't go messing around with things that they don't know about
Click to expand...

Wow. Could y'all be any more condescending?
 
Yeah, I probably would have pulled it out, too. It is not something I would intuitively expect belongs there.

But I have been strong, strong and kept my dremel tool away from all of my handguns (after that episode of home dentistry with the dremel tool when the kids were young, I learned my lesson).
 
I have never looked that closely but I don't see any cotton ball threads hanging out.
this sounds like BS.
Show me a replacement spring with cotton stuffed in it for a dampener. I'll believe it when I see it. So I can't get any oil there?
That's ridiculous. If you have cotton stuffed there, pull the crap out.
 
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