What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?

TexasRaider, I think you have misconstrued my argument with regards to time passing. I don't mean that the 3rd Gen design or style is out of date or old news and propping that argument with the success of the 1911 doesn't prove the point.

I'm suggesting that the 3rd Gen has been out of the spotlight for too long, that's what I mean about the passing of time. I'm saying that if it were 1998 right now, we could make a far more realistic argument for S&W keeping it alive.

As to S&W not catering specifically to buyers, S&W fans or to a market? Well, kind of makes them like almost all the other gunmakers these days. They are a for-profit company that also answers to share holders.

The current version of S&W, no matter what a bunch of gun cranks thinks, is far better than the LAST version of S&W, that's for sure. They bought the company at a depressed price & made them a huge player in the industry once again.

That may not be the kind of success this vocal little group cares for so much, but the value of the stock & viability of the company is far stronger today than it was when Tompkins nearly crashed and burned it entirely.
 
petemacmahon said:
I can't really speak about Gen 3s, cause I've never owned any. I've shot a few and never liked any of them. Personally, I don't know how anyone can love any traditional DA (as in DA/SA) gun?! How many revolvers could anybody sell if the first shot was always double the effort as the rest - you would be laughed out the door.

That trigger system is dead, regardless of what the gun is made from. There are aftermarket aluminum frames for glocks. Don't blame the frame material, blame the trigger.

I've never had the opportunity to shoot a DAO gen3. I'd jump at the chance if it came along.
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Oh man, I can't disagree strongly enough. The TDA system is just fine for those who devote some time and money in ammo (never a bad thing)into training. It's this new generation of guns that has created that animosity. Glock literally uses the "no safety levers to fumble with" in their sales pitch, as if learning how to use a safety (a device that has certainly prevented more deaths and injuries than has caused them) is such a hardship. Shooting a TDA weapon is completely natural if you take the time to master it, and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. ND's are less likely with a longer first shot, and far less likely with a hammer to cover with your thumb as you holster.
 
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Always enjoy these endless "why don't they bring back the 3rd G?" threads, a diversion from the usual bacon, CTG, and puppy dogs.
It's funny how people rant and rave, ad nauseum, about clocked barrels, ill fitting parts, MIM, poor QC, yada yada("not your grampa's S&W"), then miraculously think a resurgence of 3rd Gen's will be any different. Really?
Ever ran a business yourself?

Maybe some old time gunsmiths will come out of retirement just to build them? :D

I'm in for a lightweight 45 should this miracle take place. ;)

Do Sig, CZ, HK, Beretta make revolvers?
 
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Nostalgia is a drug, I think.

At least we are all so fond of something fairly recent and in arguably high volume. They don't make 3rd Gens anymore... and that stinks. But on the good side, we sure have a lot of them to chase after.
 
It's all such a moot point. :o They aren't coming back. :(
 
If Orange is the new Black, then CZ's are the new 3rd Gens.

I'll keep my 3rd Gens and have a good time with them, but I've now added a CZ 75b Stainless and a CZ Tactical Sport to the mix and have come to highly appreciate them the more I shoot them.
Both feel better in the hand, are rock solid reliable, don't cost an arm and a leg (well, the maybe the CZ-TS), are as accurate as any 9mm you can buy today, and you can buy one just by picking up a phone since they are current production with lots of parts and upgrades available if you like.
My next will be a Compact and there will probably be more after that.

I have never gotten used to the 3rd Gen double-stacks feeling a bit large in the hand, but the CZ's fix that somehow and I feel very comfortable with the two double-stacks that I have.

Don't have an M&P. Never will. For plastic, I go Springfield XD's of various flavors.
 
ladder13 said:
Do Sig, CZ, HK, Beretta make revolvers?
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If Sig did make a revolver, although it would likely be 20% higher at the price point than a S&W, I'm sure it would be a heck of lot nicer and I doubt Sig would foist such unwanted stupidity on it's customers as an internal lock.

And bashing folks for preferring a very effective, reliable and extremely usable DA/SA metal pistol, dismissing them as unrealistic fogeys addicted to 'nostalgia' is neither an intelligent response nor a practical explanation, it is simply a childlike rock throwing insult.

If 'nostalgia' was such a bad idea business wise, explain to me again the soaring number of 1911 sales? Not much on the market older than that right now. And Smith's vigorous sales of their own revolvers (those ancient, obsolete, ineffective lead chunkers of yore) seem to be doing very well in the CHL market, thereby belying the notion of "old equals dead and useless."

Firearms are not buggywhips or muscle cars, stay apples to apples here. They are a unique product that have designs going back many, many decades. M1 Garands are still being made and sold *because* in no small part, they are very nostalgic. Why did Colt bring back the Delta Elite? Because it's the greatest tactical handgun ever? Uh, no. Because it's nostalgic and the 10mm (that huge, loud, obsolete mushroom cloud evoking monster) is in a wonderful resurgence.

Don't equate the fact that S&W won't build 3rd Gens again with the idea building them is a bad idea. Smith's will is not the market, it is only their desired response to the market, and there is a good chance they're missing an opportunity. Yes, S&W is a business that needs to make a profit and does answer to investors, but just because they are in this business doesn't mean they are right about every business decision. Simply put, not making them just might be a wrong decision. Remember the Sigma? The 586's in the 1980's with firing pins that stuck in magnum primers and disable many a State Trooper's handgun with one shot? Oh yeah, S&W can foul up horribly, has done so before. Still not convinced their M&P like is nearly as durable as advertised.

Lastly, as to 'obsolescence', I seriously doubt any murderous thug felon that has expired since 1988 due to being lawfully shot by an LEO or citizen with a 3rd Gen S&W suddenly feels more alive today because that weapon is no longer in fashion, because it cannot mount silly accessories around its dust cover or fails to hold 20 rounds. Those would be killers are still DRT, and the 3rd Gen Smith that put them in the dirt are still highly effective. And anyone who knows how to use and shoot a DA/SA such as the 3rd Gen clearly understands that is not a 'dead trigger' system.

But I suppose the numerous state and federal law enforcement agencies, Navy SEALS and other military outfits ordering Sig Sauer DA/SA's this year forgot to log onto this forum to find out how stupid they are for doing so, and to get ifresh instructions on what truly works.

May angels and ministers of grace protect those poor underequipped souls carrying a 5906, 4506 or 3914 tonight...time has passed them sadly by and, the clock having struck midnight, their weapons suddenly no longer function and will surely see their owners fall perilously to their doom....
 
BONDOBOB said:
I talked to a Peoria AZ officer today and he said something, interesting. When he is out shooting and he goes to eject the 1st EMPTY mag from his glock and he pushes the button and the mag JUST WON'T COME OUT sometimes, he has a VERY sick feeling, I did not know that they are PLASTIC. The pause and pull out could be the difference between live or death, he told me. Peoria AZ forces their officers to use glock or he would have a Springfield or such with METAL mags
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It's not the gun. Ok it could be but.....early mags were mad to NOT be drop free.the idea is that you pull the mag out and replace it with the full one.....ie....don't loose them. I have both types and if you look at websites that sell surplus Glock mags they will state that some won't drop free.

Have that officer spend $25 and buy a new mag to try....guaranteed it will drop free. He simply has the old mags that ate still in rotation
J. W. said:
He should probably check his mags or gun for issues. That's not normal. I've heard of the early Glocks not having drop free mags, but not the newer generations. I'm a handgun instructor for my department and we use gen 3 and gen 4 Glocks. Never recall ever seeing an issue with anyone ejecting their mags.
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Sales, S&W cannot make enough M&P polymer guns - I have one - and S&W metal gun sales were slow. They are putting the production capacity where it counts. They learned to not expand capacity, but change it with sales trends.
 
All steel guns may be heavy, but plastic has no soul. I carry a Shield or a Glock 19 most of the time, but also carry a 1911, a 340 M&P or 640-1 fairly regularly. The polymer guns are accurate, comfortable to carry, durable and reliable, but I don't think they are any more reliable than the 4506, 4566 or the 4516s I carried for uniformed duty use, plainclothes and off-duty back in the late 80's - early 90's. I never had a problem with any of them.
 
JohnHL said:
Thank goodness!
I was afraid it was "Global Warming".

John
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Nay, Nay, nay, Women's Lib. For decades before the mid 1980's police forces across the country were armed with Colt Single action .45's, 1911 .45's, All steel S & W .45 semis, .45 revolvers, and .357 revolvers. All of these were steel rootin tootin shootin guns for REAL lawman.

Then Sally Swat appeared looking for equal opportunity on the police force. "Those guns are too big. They are too powerful for me." she exclaimed. So, city councils throughout the land searched for a light weight, low power arm for their police so Sally would be happy and not sue them for discrimination.

Lo, from Austria it came. The city councils were ecstatic. "Look a plastic girls gun that shoots a puny 9mm. Won't Sally love us."

And Sally did. And that is why there are no more 3rd generation Smiths in production.

But that is not the end of the story. After a Chicago cop fired 16 shoots at a very nice boy last week, there will be a call to limit the power and capacity of police firearms because #Criminal Lives Matter. I would expect shortly that some city councils will adopt the NAA .22 Short 5 shot as their police duty gun.
 
remember, too, that old Gaston had a sales force in every big city and Andy-and-Barney department practically giving away the guns, furnishing the leather, and buying back the Smiths. No department can stand up to a deal like that; the bean counters WILL have their say.
 
heekma said:
Hello,

I realize demise is a bit strong-members of this forum appreciate thes fine guns-with good reason.

In today's market of lightweight polymer and aluminum-framed guns, I realize the interest in all-steel guns not designed around 1911 is limited, however both Sig and Beretta continue to sell their fair share of aluminum-framed DA/SA guns while the S&W aluminum-framed autos have been dropped from the company's line up.

Why is that? I understand S&W is pursuing the polymer market with the M&P, but why aren't they going head to head with Sig and Beretta with Aluminum-framed autos?

Best,

Heekma
Click to expand...

No business makes a decision without a business plan. Customers bought polymer, S&W makes them. I no longer buy S&W's but I must be the exception.

Beretta is now my only option, the fire control is identical to the S&W autos, no training required, and lots of spare parts for the forseeable future.
 
I love my revolvers, but someone explain why S&W is still making a myriad of them? Are they selling that well? Better than 3rd Gen pistols would?
 
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