What is deadly?

[tops]

The reason many people think a 9m/m and a .380 is powerful enough they have believed the hype the cartridge advertisers put out. The advertisers show what a bullet will do when shot in a blob of jello. A body is not a blob of jello. Muscle, fat, liquid and bone will each react different. You need a bullet that will do damage no matter what it hits. Big heavy bullets do more damage. As I have said before, most experts agree that for dangerous game a big heavy bullet is best. To me nothing could be more dangerous than a 300 lb. person on some kind of dope. Larry

 

[OKFC05]

Pigs, big mean dogs, and nasty people seem to have a lot in common.
Anyone who actually has to shoot any of them to save his/her body parts becomes an advocate of powerful guns and fast, accurate shooting.
It's not about killing, it's about STOPPING!

 

[44forever]

The .22 can be extremely deadly,

but all too often, not until later. One of the things that make it deadly againt people is that the small entrance wound and external lubricant combine to drag contaminants from clothing and skin into the wound which doesn't usually bleed enough externally to flush this stuff out of the wound. The result is often infection and internal bleeding, both of which can take a while to put an attacker on his back.

I tell my students that to justify the use of deadly force, it must be so importat to stop the attacker immediately that we we literly don't care whether he lives or dies so long as he stops NOW.

 

[USAF385]

All I know is, I'm very happy with .357 Mag. I wouldn't feel "outgunned" carrying one. I also don't feel outgunned with my .40 or .38spl+P... because I've practiced enough with them that I'm confident in my ability to handle them.

I'd rather encounter someone who is a lousy shot with a .45 than someone who is excellent with a .32... or a .22 for that matter.

 

[venomballistics]

So .22 handguns are deadly at medium range, and presumably more deadly at close quarters.

Ive even heard reports of airguns putting people in the grave as well.
That is not the point here.
if you want to kill someone, anything will do the job, even a 25 auto.
but in a defensive role where your target is also trying to kill you, the game changes from just being capable of killing, to capable of killing in a reasonable span of time.

pellet gun, 22, 25 etc etc ... the target will likely have enough fight left to show you how its done before they go down several minutes later.

 

[tops]

I know a man that carried .25 Browning automatic and another man that carried a .32 S&W with a 4 in. barrel and both told me their pistols would kill anything that walked, flew, or crawled but just becaused they said it doesn't make it true. Larry

 

[DeathGrip]

Breakfast Boritto's certainly have the ballistics in their favor.

D.G.

 

[mjr]

I think if you're going to be fighting 300 lb. meth heads, you should forget the .45 and carry one of these, loaded with foster slugs.

 

[therevjay]

I have never understood the endless arguments about bullet cal. It would seem to be pretty simple. A 12 ga is best. (but rather awkward to carry concealed) .45's are better then 9mm/.38's which are better then .32's which are better then .25's/.22's which are much better then thinking happy thoughts, and saying "why cain't we all just be friends?"

 

[Rule3]

I have never understood the endless arguments about bullet cal. It would seem to be pretty simple. A 12 ga is best. (but rather awkward to carry concealed) .45's are better then 9mm/.38's which are better then .32's which are better then .25's/.22's which are much better then thinking happy thoughts, and saying "why cain't we all just be friends?"

Well put but you forgot the singing of Kumbaya

 

[MrJT]

I have never understood the endless arguments about bullet cal. It would seem to be pretty simple. A 12 ga is best. (but rather awkward to carry concealed) .45's are better then 9mm/.38's which are better then .32's which are better then .25's/.22's which are much better then thinking happy thoughts, and saying "why cain't we all just be friends?"

Well then I'd say a 10 gauge is best.

.45s are "better" than 9mm... but wait! .45s are "worse" than .44 mags... and .40s are "worse" than .357 mags... oh man there goes the "bigger cal = better theory"

"It would seem to be pretty simple"

Yeah....

 

[venomballistics]

I have never understood the endless arguments about bullet cal. It would seem to be pretty simple. A 12 ga is best. (but rather awkward to carry concealed) .45's are better then 9mm/.38's which are better then .32's which are better then .25's/.22's which are much better then thinking happy thoughts, and saying "why cain't we all just be friends?"

I only kinda understand it.
22's have a deadly history in assassinations.
Its easy to see why some opt for these mini mites given the number of bodies racked up by that caliber alone.
It is a great caliber for the task of executing hits as it lends itself to very small or even entirely hidden guns.
To make a hit you have all the time in the world to pick your moment to stack the deck in favor of success, and instant kills aren't necessary ... it doesn't matter if the target lingers on for 10 -20 minutes after being serviced as long as they are expired .... eventually.
These dark facts must be taken into account when selecting a caliber for defense use. You just dont have the same environmental variables nor the time you are afforded in an assassination

 

[BarbC]

I've shot deer with a .25, a .38 wadcutter and shotgun slugs.

The deer died with the .25 because I shot it twice point-blank in the head. It had been hit by a car and was lying in the road.

The .38 deflected off a small branch enough to nick the browtine. I know this because I downed that same deer later in the afternoon with a Model 1100 shotgun slug.

My ex is a former two-tour VietNam Marine and 24-year NYC police veteran. He has shot people with everything from bird shot accidentally left in his service revolver to .50 cal machine gun. He has been avid big-game hunter for decades. He is now in animal control. He carries a .45 Kimber. While we have had our differences, I absolutely trust his experience and knowledge in guns and ballistics.

In a critical moment, I want surety that the threat will be stopped. I'm afraid I won't have time for experiments in death by a thousand cuts.

 

[anglaispierre]

We are all talking about what is best as a lifesaver. This has been a fascinating thread with a good variety of opinions. I never intended to knock larger calibres, simply to put the whole thing in perspective. I also raised the issue of +Ps and enhanced power bullets.

Charlie Sherrill was able to comment based on professional experience, saying: “Until the last few years the majority of the homicides around here were committed with .22 or .25 caliber cartridges. Most were only one or two shots.” Others have given anecdotal accounts.

Of course the acid test is personal experience rather than hearsay. Has anyone actually had to use a gun in such circumstances? I don't mean LEOs in the course of their duty, although their views would be welcome.

 

[Rule3]

IMHO, I think what really matters is what is a person comfortable with and what is practical for the situation.

Sure, I agree with Barb and if I wore sweat shirts, jackets, jeans I would carry a 40 something or a big arse revolver. But they just do not fit in my speedo's (Shorts and t shirts.) I am not a big guy, so no room to hide a large gun so I go with the next best and put the bigest I can in my right front pocket. I do not feel outgunned with Kahr PM9 and 7 rds of 124gr +P JHP. or 7 rds of .380 102gr Rem Golden Sabers. I can hit what I aim for.

 

[armsmaster270]

I have had to save my life only once and that was with a 38Spl 110gr +P+ round. It mushroomed to .612 and per the coroner blew the heart to shreds went into the lower lobe of the lung and stopped in the fatty tissue of the back. He was dead on his feet and fell at my feet. Now I carry the 357Sig in a Sig 226 primary and a 340PD 357Mag as backup in my pocket and trust both to do the job.

 

[PALADIN85020]

There's a difference between "deadly" and DRT (Dead Right There). Arguably, more people have been killed with a .25 semiauto pistol than about anything else. Only problem is that most of them died well after being shot, enabling them to fight back against the person or persons who shot them. While the .25 ACP or the .22 LR can be "deadly", they are NOT stoppers.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Let me see if I have got this straight. I want a 10 gauge over/under w/1 3/4 oz slug on top and 2 1/4 oz buck n ball on the bottom. To compliment that I need a 45 colt wheelgun, 10 mm bottom feeder and a 5 shot Charter arms 44 w/200 gn flying ashtrays for a bug.

Oh yeah I almost forgot, a couple of hawg dawgs and a half a dozen fightin' cocks wearin' steel spurs, double bit ax, 6' of 1/2" chainsaw blade on a 5' hickory staff, Prussian Kaiser field marshal spiked hell-mut for head buttin' and a fireman's hatchet for clean-up.

If he is a big mean fella I'm just bringin' the sling n dot him 'tween the eyes w/a smooth stone...

 

[armsmaster270]

You forgot Excaliber

 

[willy]

OOPS.
Wrong thread,
I was looking for the IL thread.
Sorry,,,,, carry on.