What is your Go to War Sidearm?

[wood714]

I just cannot bring myself to kick a man man while he's down, even if he'd be willing to kick me when I'm down.

By kicking a man when he's down on the ground and can no longer defend himself. Or any other such ways that a common street thug might fight. Without any shread of honor whatsoever.

Big difference between kicking a man when he's down and kicking a man that's unconscious, that's the only scenario I can think of when someone can no longer defend themselves.

If your life is on the line and you got someone down, best to make sure they don't get back up.

 

[sipowicz]

5 shot Chief. I plan to be a General if I go.

 

[Rustyt1953]

By kicking a man when he's down on the ground and can no longer defend himself. Or any other such ways that a common street thug might fight. Without any shread of honor whatsoever.

In a fight for your life they don't give bonus points for honor.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

220 replies and growing! Nicely done.

Everyone has their own version of a war pistol. I'm sticking with pistols here, not revolvers. Without reading hundreds of replies I would wager that every high capacity 9mm is identified, plenty of 1911s, and a host of other hand guns. I could easily create a list for myself but, if I have to choose one from my personal assortment, it is this old school, Italian Beretta M92. 15 rounds of 9mm, easy to handle, has my beloved decocker and TDA firing system, it's all I can ask for in a fighting pistol. What's the expression? Everything you need, nothing you don't.

The only other pistol in my "assortment" that comes close is this 5906:

There are plenty of choices out there and I have some others that fit the bill but these are my top picks.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Would you be shooting hollow points, FMJs, or both?

Since this was speculative, and presumably involves the SHTF scenario and not conscription in military service where you carry what they tell you to carry, the issue of ammo selection was not specifically raised by the OP unless I missed something. So, with respect to ammunition, I would choose that which I literally have available, and I would not worry about FMJ versus HP, etc. If the Geneva Convention is involved that's different but, otherwise, I bring to the games the tools that I have available. That's why I stuck to my own weapons, and I did omit the Browning HP but that's because my first two choices would be TDA pistols, not SA.

Along those lines, I'm seeing a lot more of your selecting .45 ACP, especially the M1911 as your sidearm of choice. Being a relative newbie, would you help me understand the advantages of the M1911 over, say my Glock 17 or the Glock 21 in .45 ACP?

There is no advantage in terms of ammunition except with respect to "firepower", meaning magazine capacity. Old school American shooters simply adore the 1911 for reasons that escape me. I am not a Glock fan myself, I prefer "TDA" pistols with decockers, which is pretty old school, anyway, and I'm definitely OLD school. Why anyone would select a pistol capable of holding 8 rounds over a pistol capable of holding twice that amount is a mystery to me.

I don't hate 1911s, they'll certainly do the job that's required, but while you're reloading the warrior next to you with his Glock 17 is still shooting. Remember, the SHTF, and I eliminated revolvers specifically to get to higher capacity.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I see this subject has strayed some; I'm glad I perused it in depth.

You can argue about how sensible it is to fight like a thug if you please, but personally, I just cannot bring myself to kick a man man while he's down, even if he'd be willing to kick me when I'm down.

I don't know what they teach in the police academies and maybe the Unites States Army's new and probably very effete 2022 methodology is different but back in the day we were taught a very effective way to end a hand to hand fight when you got your opponent on the ground.

It kind of went like this:

Heel stomp, starting with the right, HUH!!!

We were trained to "Kill, Drill Sergeant!" in no uncertain terms and this was designed to be a war gun thread and in war that's the name of the game.

 

[John Patrick]

I just wondered what your expertise in fighting was. Now I know.

The idea of “fighting dirty” is naive, in my experience. I’ve been in brutal fights and came out ok. The last thing I considered was if I was being fair to the other guy.

Your posts usually are sensible. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to lecture on a subject which is so unfamiliar to you is odd. But its the internet, so ok.

In my experience, not a lot of losers think a fight was fair, pretty much every winner thinks a fight was fair.

 

[AJ]

Google "Murphy's Rules Of Combat"......

 

[Mark8]

When discussing fighting dirty vs fighting with honor, we should probably differentiate between bar fights and such and fights to the death. Many here know from personal experience that when push comes to shove, things change very very quickly, and in a fight to the death situation, almost everyone will fight dirty eventually, just like any other animal will. Having said that, let's not forget that in every fight, strength/posture/weapons and most importantly skills are much more important than one's willingness to fight dirty. The vast majority of people possess very little of the above, and no amount of willingness to fight dirty will keep them from going down fast when facing a skilled, well-equipped opponent.

Having said that, I would like to say that I very much appreciate the fact that people with Forte's moral compass are here on this forum and out there. It's the kind of people you want as neightbors/buddies/friends.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Having said that, I would like to say that I very much appreciate the fact that people with Forte's moral compass are here on this forum and out there. It's the kind of people you want as neightbors/buddies/friends.

But maybe not as your backup if the SHTF!
I want someone who'll bring a gun to a knife fight!!!!!




Rule #1: live a life so as to avoid being invited to a knife fight!
Rule #2: have a gun handy

 

[Mark8]

I want someone who'll bring a gun to a knife fight!!!!!

In this regard, you're probably preaching to the choir on this forum.

 

[BAM-BAM]

In this regard, you're probably preaching to the choir on this forum.

Agreed.... but this thread has taken a hard left turn from "what gun" to "how one would apply violence in a SHTF"

 

[SF VET]

Best Combat handgun

well, there isn't a best one. Having carried an issue 1911 in Vietnam and later in Desert Storm, I have some personal experience with this thought, and some hypothetical considerations. I never fired either one other than for fun and target shooting. My issue pistol was both reassuring and a aggravation.

So, here are my thoughts.

First, the handgun has to reliably function no matter how much muck and water and mud and sand and even rust and grit the firearm is operating in.

Needs to be a common ammo, not some semi-exotic round not likely to be available in a far away place. 9 mm ball likely found all over the world. Need enough ammo to practice and rotate: when I fired one of my mags just before turning it back in when I was leaving RVN, a round stuck in the barrel. Turned it in that way. Just an old, worn, probably too often wet/oily bullet. Need plenty of fresh ammo.

Easy to disassemble, without loosing small parts in the mud you are squatting in. I am sure some shooters claim that they would always keep their handguns clean, lubed and functioning. But I can attest to how difficult it can be to find the place, the time, and the "tools" and supplies to do so. Cleaning a handgun with only moonlight risks loosing parts. Perhaps the only cleaning may be dunking in a bucket of diesel, and lubing with used motor oil. It can be really challenging to keep a metal pistol from rusting in hours.

Maximum mag capacity essential. Might need to suppress fire at a boarder checkpoint, or have enough in a mag to discourage bad guys coming up a stairs to kill you.

A bigger, heavier pistol useful in keeping a grip on it, and using as a hand tool in personal combat. But a smaller pistol is helpful in deep concealment. I worked with some plainclothes US in Africa, and they all carried revolvers, tucked away. Back then there weren't any small reliable pistols to be had.

And when your hands are numb with cold, and in bulky muddy gloves, employing a small gun is more difficult than a big one. But every pound carried in war is just that much more to lug around. I don't think nite sights are essential to be a consideration.

Have a way to be sure you don't lose your firearm. Good retention holster or other. I had my 1911 fall out of my worn flap holster, and ran back and luckily found it. Put a lanyard on it after that. Risk loosing a pistol climbing in and out of tactical vehicles.

I don't think a subdued finish vs a shiny SS is very important.

I always carried my 1911 in Vietnam, leaving my hands free for using my radio. In Desert Storm, it couldn't wait to turn my .45 into our unit armorer. It was impossible to keep it from rusting overnight.

So.... if I were anticipating every possible scenario, my choice would be one of my H&K's. Simple, reliable with odd 9mm, light, good mag capacity, big trigger guard, less metal to rust, good holsters, good grip, and most of all, I shoot them a lot, and am pretty good with all of them.

Now, another cup of coffee. Stay safe...

SF VET

 

[OIF2]

Another 1911. In my limited experience, a pretty good pistola.
Bob

 

[BAM-BAM]

SF Vet................ liked your post #233.
Fact is I've liked most of your posts....................

Just two comments:

As to "common ammo" what popped into my mind General Patton with his .45 long Colt and .357 magnum! Nice to be a General!!!!

Alway heard/read that H&K make damn good guns..... but can't tell you last time I saw one in real life...... let alone spare mags!



I picked the Beretta 92 Centurion with all the "upgrades" added in the past 37 years. With 18rd Mec-gar mags. G-10 slim grips, radiused grip frame and the 4.25" slide it's what, IMHO, the M-9 should have been

 

[SF VET]

when I load my 9mm, and check with a case gage or "plunk" test in some of my 1911 pistols, and find some just won't "go" for various reasons, I put them in a box for my H&K's as they will chamber and shoot out of spec (short, long, dented, high or low power, ball or HP) ammo without fail. My son and I have I think 6 of them. In thousands of assorted rounds, not once a failure in any of them. Lots of really good handguns out there. But H&K's are simple and robust pistols that flat out work. Always....

and despite blocky sights they are somehow amazingly accurate.

Thanks, SF VET

 

[giants1]

So.... if I were anticipating every possible scenario, my choice would be one of my H&K's. Simple, reliable with odd 9mm, light, good mag capacity, big trigger guard, less metal to rust, good holsters, good grip, and most of all, I shoot them a lot, and am pretty good with all of them.

Now, another cup of coffee. Stay safe...

SF VET

Thanks.
Which of the H&K models would you recommend?
What upgrades, eg recoil springs, and common repairs might be needed?

 

[RobertJ.]

Folks may fight dirty, but there is a better way, to fight decisively.

Those who fight dirty do so because they really cannot fight at all, so they rely upon cheap tricks and deception to win a fight.

Actual warriors doesn't need to deceive their enemies because they know how to fight, cannot be bested by deception because they can see right through it, and never drop their guard, leaving no opening for a suckerpunch, a kick to the groin, a poke to the eye, or a stab in the back.

Dirty fighting is only employed by contemptuous cowards which can only succeed against like-minded individuals who fail to recognize, analyze, and neutralize a threat without hesitation before it has an opportunity to strike, because they lack any skill, instinct, or spirit for fighting.

Fight dirty if that's the most that you are capable of, just don't be too surprised when it fails spectacularly when attempted against anyone with even the most miniscule of combat capabilities, or if a true warrior simply recognizes you as a threat and makes short work of you before you ever get a chance.
Otherwise, I suggest actually trying to become educated in the art of fighting, to hone your skills, sharpen your mind through experience, and seek out your fighting spirit in order to overcome your fears as well as your doubts so that you can fight decisively.

Since you haven't fought since you were a kid, I'm guessing that these tidbits of wisdom come from somewhere on the 'net?

 

[SF VET]

H&K has a lifetime warranty, even if not the original owner. They make a good variety of firearms, esp handguns. Both hammer and striker fired, big, middling, and smaller versions. Not likely to need any repairs and there really isn't an aftermarket of accessories for them. Mags run about $45 or so each, some versions fit in different pistols. Now making some with an optic plate, which I have no need for: I can't get used to an optic.

On mine, while H&K's don't have fine, precise, delicate precision target sights, they all shoot precisely to my point of aim. The VP9's are noted for their excellent triggers. Many have the mag please in a sort of dual paddle just behind the trigger. I find it really fast, all I have to do is to just pinch with my thumb and index finger and the mag will fly out. If you then insert the fresh mag with some snap it will chamber the round without having to touch the slide release; a mag change is really fast. No streatching your thumb around to press a 1911's mag release. H&K's tend to cost a few hundred bucks more than similar pistols. Whatever they coat or finish their pistols in is absolutely indestructible. Some have manual safeties. Later ones have easy to swap out grip panels.

Oh, Jack Bauer in the 24 TV series a few years ago used an H&K as his personal firearm. That does it for me!!!!!

I have shot a lot of my friends's pistols, and the only ones that are similar in my hands are some of the Walther pistols. I don't own any Glocks....

By the way, at a range demonstration the other day, had a chance to handle and shoot the soon to be released FN "HighPower". Slightly different than the 1935 variant, and really a nice out-of-the-box $1,245 pistol. Semi-custom. I have 3 of the "real ones", but this new FN is a superb pistol, for those liking John Browning's finest.

Sitting here with a heating pad on my back, from detailing two cars the other day. Wife making her special corn beef hash for dinner.

All the best... SF VET

 

[Moo Moo]

Didn't Fairbairn and Sykes come up with the "gutter fighting" techniques that they taught WW2 soldiers.