What we carried in 71, the Model 10-5

P.S. The Firearms Unit instructors I met were some of the finest (and friendliest) cops I ever came across.[/QUOTE]

There were some good instructors up there. But geez the food and coffee could have been better. Not to mention the kitchen helpers and grounds crew in their "green uniforms".
 
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mj2008 said:
P.S. The Firearms Unit instructors I met were some of the finest (and friendliest) cops I ever came across.
Click to expand...

There were some good instructors up there. But geez the food and coffee could have better. Not to mention the kitchen helpers and grounds crew in their "green uniforms".[/QUOTE]

Yeah,the trustee inmates with one guard from Rikers Island serving up the chow in the mess hall that was surrounded by rat colonies.

The place really came to life after dark.

Also fishing for stripped bass in the wee hours before dawn from the banks of the range was very good most of the year.

Shield #25569 March 1966~ May 1985
One in the vest in 1973,ricochet fragment off my thick skull in 1975
 
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I was ok with the third rate condition of the place as a whole. Was like the station house, made you feel at home. But I like good coffee. The guys who worked up there were a good bunch. They tried to make your day as interesting and as short as they could
 
While I have enough vision trouble that the fixed sight revolvers are not really my preference now, if one carries a revolver, the M&Ps are and were good solid gear. I've spent too much time training with and carrying auto pistols to be adequately proficient with a revolver in my view. Answer: I am going to do the revolver class at HITS this fall; won't be perfect, but will suck less.

The comments about the fears of brass with regard to better trained officers are sadly true - Cirillo was among the best, and he dumped a lot of really bad offenders. My answer to that is "so what? They were all good shoots and he saved the lives that mattered - cops and the uninvolved civilians."

Ammo: The LRN was a pig, for sure, but the substandard training as to target areas on the human bodies did not help. I'm pretty sure that standard or +P hard cast 158-170 SWCs in the right place (shoot 'em to the ground), would perform just fine as a matter of terminal ballistics.
 
StakeOut said:
....My final year of service was at the Firearms Unit under Lt Mcgee.....
Click to expand...

Hey, I was there at the same time!! I served, variously as a sgt. and a lt., under Frank McGee, Tom McTernan and John Cerar.

For the record, by the early 1970s the dept was using semi-wad cutters, not round nose projectiles. Frank was really stubborn about semi-autos though. Didn't think much of them for general police issue.

Rich



Wally O, Bullet Potential lecture.


Frankie G at Firearms Instructors School, mid-1970s.




Me (in jacket) with John Cerar and the Master Firearms Instructors. I was ICO so got to wear what I wanted.
 
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Were's the female instructors in the pix.

I remember only Mary who later went into the Emergency Squad and got shot in the face with a .45.Luckily she survived but required a lot of reconstructive surgery.

Most of the guys in the pix look familiar,but remember Wally for sure.

How about Sal Deciara(sp) the gunsmith?

The man carrying both an M1 Carbine and the god awful S&W M76 and the narcs on the firing line sure stirs up memories.
 
StakeOut said:
Were's the female instructors in the pix.

I remember only Mary who later went into the Emergency Squad and got shot in the face with a .45.Luckily she survived but required a lot of reconstructive surgery.

Most of the guys in the pix look familiar,but remember Wally for sure.

How about Sal Deciara(sp) the gunsmith?

The man carrying both an M1 Carbine and the god awful S&W M76 and the narcs on the firing line sure stirs up memories.
Click to expand...

Sal doesn't ring a bell. I knew (in the gunsmith shop); Ron K, Jerry (the plumber) C, Vinnie).

Frankie G (the instructor with the S&W 76 and M-1 carbine) was around for years.

Rich
 
This Forum is so fortunate to have someone like RichCapeCod here. He brings to the table a wealth of real world firearm experience, know-how, and knowledge. His expertise and renown publications on firearms makes him an asset second-to-none. His greatest character qualities is his warmth and humility. A very common LE officer, like myself, can approach this great man and not be talked down upon. Things like this is the measuring stick of a man's greatness. The Lt. is truly this! I appreciate him sharing his experience through his posts and pictures of his past. These too, give us an indicator of his very thick portfolio of self education, the very best there is, his experience, dedication to his job, and so willing to share it with us. Thanks Lt.

David
 
dabney said:
This Forum is so fortunate to have someone like RichCapeCod here. He brings to the table a wealth of real world firearm experience, know-how, and knowledge. His expertise and renown publications on firearms makes him an asset second-to-none. His greatest character qualities is his warmth and humility. A very common LE officer, like myself, can approach this great man and not be talked down upon. Things like this is the measuring stick of a man's greatness. The Lt. is truly this! I appreciate him sharing his experience through his posts and pictures of his past. These too, give us an indicator of his very thick portfolio of self education, the very best there is, his experience, dedication to his job, and so willing to share it with us. Thanks Lt.

David
Click to expand...

Thanks or the very kind words Dave. Now I'm embarrassed!

Rich
 
Before the actual Stake Out Unit was formed due to extreme pressure from business owners on the mayor to do something about it,members of the Firearms Unit were called upon to do stake outs.

They included Jimmy Cirillo,Frank May,Augie Lucenti,Al Syage,Mike DeFao,Murry Rakowski,Eddie Kavanagh and Joe Vulpato.
These men were all excellent shots and competition shooters.
Other names escape my at the moment
 
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Doug M. said:
And a lot of very bad people were stopped by good guys.
Click to expand...

Amen to that!

If I recall correctly the 1st 10 armed robbers put down by SOU members had previously been arrested for 185 crimes of violence.
How many weren't they caught for?

The SOU was disbanded by the same politicians that were pressured into starting it by business owners fed up with being robbed,beaten,shot and sometimes killed.The reason stated for disbanding was that the unit did not deter crime from happening.

What do you think the real reasons were?
 
This has been a great thread-

Stakeout if we answer your question:

"The SOU was disbanded by the same politicians that were pressured into starting it by business owners fed up with being robbed,beaten,shot and sometimes killed.The reason stated for disbanding was that the unit did not deter crime from happening.

What do you think the real reasons were?"
_
Answering factually will violate forum rules ( hint -its happening all over the country right now).
 
5 Screw Pre-Model 10 (4" M&P)

My first issue gun was also a 5 Screw 4" M&P. We used 158 grain round nose lead rounds back then, and then when the need for more effective ammo was decided on, we went to Speer Lawman 125 JSP rounds. When the rounds turned out to be too much for the old M&P revolvers, the department switched us to 4" HB Model 64's. Your first anything always holds a special place in your heart, and I too am a big fan of the Model 10 type revolvers. I still would choice a revolver over an automatic today.
 
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I couldn't take a law enforcement job today.

You can't do the job and get thrown under the bus for doing exactly what you're paid to do.

Every shooting was declared as "Justifiable Homicide" by an impaneled grand jury.

My NYPD personnel file labeled me as violent prone and probably all other SOU members that had multiple shooting incidents.

I wrote high scores on promotion exams,had veterans credit,lots of PD awarded medals but I stood up in the men's room and burned easily in the sun.
 
Stakeout, you, Jim Cirillo, Bill Allard, others of the NYPD are what we use to refer to as RP's or REAL POLICE. Guys who were trained by RP's to be RP's. A type of policeman that I so wish was the norm today. With the advancement of political correctness, all agencies, north to south and east to west suffered under its wrath to "fix things" that wasn't broke. Our country is crumbling from its once greatness because of liberal ideology and moral decadence of many people. The thin blue line, once manned by Real Police like yourself, is manned by something else nowadays. Oh, there are exceptions, but not enough exceptions. Good personnel, handcuffed by a system that is tilted toward liberal, socialist anarchy would be a better way to describe the "thin blue line" of today. I lament the passing of cops like you Stakeout, do I ever! For me, I couldn't even tie your shoe-strings when I was on the beat. I just hung on and did the best that I could back then. Being on calls with the few RP's we had was always an adventure and left me with stories to share for years to come. From one old cop, still serving, to another old cop, that is retired, Job well done brother!
 
The NYPD in 1965/1966 had a tough written test,tough physical test,a 5'8" height requirement and a 150lb weight requirement.Getting through the Academy took a lot of hard work.

After countless law suites from every so called minority these requirements vanished,replaced by almost none at all.Height and weight requirements were completely thrown out.

In 1966 there was a Police Women's Bureau that had a limit of 500.They were paid the same as men and won the right to take promotion tests but the wonen were not out in the street on patrol.They had jobs in the youth division,female cells and some undercover work but mostly they worked inside in non dangerous jobs.
After more law suites by a few women that wanted to be just like the men several women went out on patrol in the early seventies.In following years women took the police entrance exams and competed equally with men for the openings.

Police women carried a 3" S&W,I don't remember if it was a Model 10 but it looked like one.I believe it was a special order from Swith.Some men bought the 3" Smith from the police equipment bureau to carry off duty.
In the beginning I carried an S&W Chief or a Colt Detective Special Off Duty.I didn't have a lot of confidence in either of them so I strapped on a Colt 1911 very often and had a Walther PP 22 in my pocket.
 
Revolvers carried in the 70s

StakeOut said:
The NYPD in 1965/1966 had a tough written test,tough physical test,a 5'8" height requirement and a 150lb weight requirement.Getting through the Academy took a lot of hard work.

After countless law suites from every so called minority these requirements vanished,replaced by almost none at all.Height and weight requirements were completely thrown out.

In 1966 there was a Police Women's Bureau that had a limit of 500.They were paid the same as men and won the right to take promotion tests but the wonen were not out in the street on patrol.They had jobs in the youth division,female cells and some undercover work but mostly they worked inside in non dangerous jobs.
After more law suites by a few women that wanted to be just like the men several women went out on patrol in the early seventies.In following years women took the police entrance exams and competed equally with men for the openings.

Police women carried a 3" S&W,I don't remember if it was a Model 10 but it looked like one.I believe it was a special order from Swith.Some men bought the 3" Smith from the police equipment bureau to carry off duty.
In the beginning I carried an S&W Chief or a Colt Detective Special Off Duty.I didn't have a lot of confidence in either of them so I strapped on a Colt 1911 very often and had a Walther PP 22 in my pocket.
Click to expand...

IIRC the Smith and Wesson Model 36 3" HB was the model for the NYPD female officers
 
The job is just a reflection of society in general. These days the people coming on the job are from the "everyone gets a trophy", "no bullying", "everyone is special just because you are here" generation. Most have never been in a fight. For the most part, their work ethic leaves a lot to be desired. I think it's one of the reasons why there are so many bad police shootings these days. Of course police are just a cross section of society and the problems we have are being experienced, on one level or another, by all sectors of life in this country.
 
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StakeOut, you're bringing back memories. From your posts in this thread:

"They included Jimmy Cirillo, Frank May, Augie Lucenti, Al Syage, Mike DeFao, Murry Rakowski, Eddie Kavanagh and Joe Vulpato."

Frank May taught me how to shoot double-action. He was running a Staten Island indoor range during the winter and I'd go there for my fifty rounds a month practice ammo (actually, I went to three or four indoor ranges each month for the practice rounds, but let's not go there…). Wonderful guy.

Quick Frankie May story. I'm a young cop. It's Friday (Frank's last day before his day's off). I see him cleaning his model 10, which he did once a week. The gun was in a million little pieces. I watched him put it back together, quietly take the handgun, six rounds of ammo, ear and eye protection, walk to the firing line and fire six rounds from the handgun. When he came back I teased him, asking him what the heck was he doing dirtying up a newly cleaned handgun? His words to me were;

"I just took this gun apart. I had to make sure I didn't (expletive deleted) it up!"

To this day I use his statement when lecturing on handgun cleaning, especially semi-autos.

"The SOU was disbanded by the same politicians that were pressured into starting it by business "owners fed up with being robbed, beaten, shot and sometimes killed.""

The unit was disbanded because virtually all the individuals shot during their attempted robberies were persons of color. I was told that while assigned to the Firearms and Tactics Unit. That unit did more to deter crime than 500 patrol officers!

"Police women carried a 3" S&W,I don't remember if it was a Model 10…"

It was a heavy barrel model 36 with square butt. Great gun. Would have been perfect for detectives except the gun had the unofficial name of "policewomen's gun." Guys wouldn't touch it.

Rich
 
RichCapeCod,that's a great Frankie May story.

Frank was in my car when we were pursued by the NY State Police on the NY Truway coming back from a shoot near Rochester.My car and occupants(Cirillo,May,Lucenti) matched broadcast description of fleeing bank robbers.

I virually lived at the indoor/outdoor ranges getting that free ammo and ammo from those that didn't want to shoot it.

I would always try to practice down on range #1 at Rodman's Neck so Lt McGee wouldn't see me practicing with my 1911 and K38.Also dug a lot of lead out of the hills down there.
I think the statute of limitations on that has expired so I can say it now.:cool:
 
RichCapeCod said:
It was a heavy barrel model 36 with square butt. Great gun. Would have been perfect for detectives except the gun had the unofficial name of "policewomen's gun." Guys wouldn't touch it.

Rich
Click to expand...

I would have bought one if i hadn't already bought a 5 shot Chief and an awful Colt Detective Special.

More recently Smith made the Model 65 3" SS "Lady Smith";a nice carry/shooter except for the name applied to it.
 
StakeOut said:
I would have bought one if i hadn't already bought a 5 shot Chief and an awful Colt Detective Special......
Click to expand...

When the dept was phasing out the 3" "policewoman's" revolver I bought one. Cost was, if memory serves, around $77 bucks from the Equipment Section.

Beautiful little revolver but it doesn't shoot precisely to point of aim. Thus I almost never carried the handgun.

Rich

I put Fuzzy Farrant grips on the gun.



This Det Special was my off-duty and back-up revolver. Colt triggers were just plain lousy in comparison to the S&W's. This Colt started out with a "pencil" barrel. The heavy barrel went on a few years later.
 
Lt., the Detective Special was a sought after arm with our plain clothes officers in the early 70's. The S&W Model 36 was standard issue then and the Colt was bought out of pocket. Nothing to do with quality, but everything to do with that six-round cylinder of the DS.
The Detective Special seemed to have had a strong presence at NYPD during your time as well as the S&W Model 36. How did qualification differ with the snubbies versus the service revolvers?

David
 
dabney said:
... How did qualification differ with the snubbies versus the service revolvers?

David
Click to expand...

Dave, no distinction was made. Both size handgun were fired on the same course of fire. These varied. Sometimes we went out to a full 25 yards and, for a period of time, the course was only out to 15 yards (which really made sense if you reviewed the Firearms Discharge annual reports).

No idea what course of fire the dept has now.

Rich
 
30+ years ago, quantities of .38 LSWC in 18 round boxes showed up at local gun shows. I don't remember the brand.

Gossip was that the 18 round boxes made for easy issue at some large eastern PD. 6 in the revolver and 12 on the belt. Come see me again next year.

FWIW, LAPD reportedly stuck with RNL .38 well into the 1980's. As Ayoob wrote, the vote for JHP was 6000 to 1, but that one was Chief Davis.
 
SG-688 said:
30+ years ago, quantities of .38 LSWC in 18 round boxes showed up at local gun shows. I don't remember the brand.

Gossip was that the 18 round boxes made for easy issue at some large eastern PD. 6 in the revolver and 12 on the belt.
Click to expand...

The NYPD issued service rounds (Winchester, Federal, Remington) in .38 Special (158 grain semi-wad cutter standard velocity) in 18 round boxes. As SG stated, six for the handgun and twelve for the pouches.

"Training" rounds (148 grain wad-cutter configuration) were procured in fifty round boxes.

Rich
 
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