Who at Smith & Wesson should I complain to?

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by Fulton722:

Originally posted by shawn mccarver:

Originally posted by Fulton722:
If S&W has "obliterated" the serial number on your revolver, they have committed a federal firearms violation. To be in possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number is also a federal offense which I'm sure you want no part of. You may want to discuss with S&W that your next step will be to call ATF and discuss the situation with them.

What you say is NOT correct for a licensed manufacturer.

Are you implying that a "licensed manufacturer" can ship/transfer a firearm with an altered or obliterated serial number and not be in violation of US Code? Take a look at Title 18, U.S.C. § 922(k).

Thank you for the legal advice on firearms law. No, I am not suggesting that S&W may do what is prohibited by law. That would be, well, stupid.

I am suggesting that perhaps, giving S&W the benefit of the doubt, what was done was considered not an alteration or obliteration of an existing serial number as specified in 922(k), but in actual practice and on the records at S&W, the blasting of a returned frame and subsequent rebuild might lawfully be considered the manufacture of a "new" firearm, hence the new serial number.

Remember, this is the law we are talking about, so it doesn't have to make sense. You and I would think a "new" firearm means a "brand new" firearm - new frame, parts, etc., that just came down the "assembly line."

However, what was done must merely be an approved procedure as far as BATFE is concerned with respect to a firearms manufacturer's practices. Then, it is not an obliteration or alteration, but a "newly manufactured" firearm.

Since BATFE does not care whether the components that go into a manufactured firearm requiring a serial number are "new" or "used" the way a consumer uses those terms, it is quite possible that S&W is allowed to strip a frame clean (in this case not completely clean) and then use that same frame to make a firearm, requiring a new serial number.

I do not know if that is the case here, but I am willing to allow for another interpretation on the assumption that S&W knows its business and does not make a practice of committing crimes.

I definitely agree with you that if an unlicensed individual blasted the frame almost clean and applied a new serial number, a violation would have been committed.

I am just not sure that is how BATFE would interpret the act within the confines of the manufacturing facility of a licensed manufacturer, especially since S&W is allowed to "destroy" (however that is interpreted - it may NOT mean actually cutting them up) frames and issue new serial numbers and return such firearms directly to consumers.

Since it does not seem likely to me that S&W would knowingly violate the law, I am perhaps trying to see if a different interpretation would apply here.

I would, under those circumstances, conclude that the failure to blast the old serial number completely off the frame is nothing more than an incomplete blasting job in the finishing department.

I am not saying I like it or that the crappy blasting is a great idea, but I am just not ready to convict S&W of a crime and revoke its license to manufacture firearms.

Certainly, if I owned the firearm in question, I would send it back for corrective action so that I did not have to explain the presence of the old serial number later. And, it certainly sounds like S&W took care of the customer in this case.

 

[Fulton722]

Shawn,
As a result of your comment, "Thank you for the legal advice on firearms law.", please disregard my prior comments.

I would suggest you contact the Chief of Firearms Technology (address below), and get an official answer to this scenario instead of continuing to infer that this S&W firearm (as shown with alterations to the serial number) will not result in the manufacturer and/or possessor being charged under Title 18, US Code, both an expensive and time consuming process.

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Bureau of ATFE
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25405
Phone: (304) 260-5476

 

[deanodog]

Good ending for a good guy. I hope that fixes the problem for you for good.

 

[scooter123]

This is well after the resolution of this issue. However, there may be a very simple explanation of what happened here. It's quite possible that S&W did replace the frame and re-marked the crane that was mounted to the old frame with the new frames serial number. If so, S&w may have been well within the Law because it's the serial number on the frame that may not be tampered with.

However, that re-marking of the crane would probably cause a lot of issues if the gun were ever sold, or inspected by law enforcement. So, the OP did exactly what I would have done and it's good to see that S&W finally did right for this owner. I also hope that management at S&W is kicking some butt in their service center because this never should have happened. If they had to replace the frame, they should have put a brand new, matching, crane on the gun at the same time.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by Fulton722:
Shawn,
As a result of your comment, "Thank you for the legal advice on firearms law.", please disregard my prior comments.

I would suggest you contact the Chief of Firearms Technology (address below), and get an official answer to this scenario instead of continuing to infer that this S&W firearm (as shown with alterations to the serial number) will not result in the manufacturer and/or possessor being charged under Title 18, US Code, both an expensive and time consuming process.

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Bureau of ATFE
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25405
Phone: (304) 260-5476

We are having a discussion. I offered my opinion. You offered yours. Neither of our opinions are binding advice on anyone. They are merely ideas in an open discussion forum, so stop being so defensive about this issue. As to disregarding your comments, I did that almost as soon as I read them - both the originals and the follow up.

If the owner of the revolver we are all talking about wants to make a complaint to BATFE about S&W's conduct in this matter, that is his business.

I am not inclined to do so, in part because I am not sure there is a violation, and in part because I do not feel it is my place to do so.

The reasons I do not feel there is a violation are set forth in my other post. In addition, please remember the "serial number" on an S&W revolver is the one on the butt. I have no evidence that the one on the butt was tampered with.

Can you, for example, prove from what we have before us that it is NOT a new frame, with a new serial number on the butt on which someone mistakenly lasered the old number in the crane, perhaps programming in the old number in the machine by reading it wrong off the work order or something? It is possible this happened, and rather than discard the frame, they sand or bead or whatever-blasted it in order to laser the correct number in the crane of the new frame. Since that is not the "serial number" for BATFE purposes, I am not sure that messing with it is a problem. Again, I just do not feel we have all the facts enough to go and accuse S&W of a crime.

If you truly feel a crime has occurred, then you should do your civic duty and report the crime. Otherwise, you probably should stop complaining about it.

 

[Careby]

...It's quite possible that S&W did replace the frame and re-marked the crane that was mounted to the old frame with the new frames serial number...

The s/n visible when the crane is pivoted open is etched on the frame itself, not the crane. In this case it was apparent to me that the original frame had been blasted and refinished, and a new s/n applied. I an not an expert on firearms law, so I really shouldn't speculate on the legality of the process, but I would guess it is legal. The major problem for me was that the remains of the original s/n were still visible, making it obvious the s/n had been altered, and the documentation of the s/n change that S&W sent me, which would be the proof required had I ever needed to explain the change in s/n, said the frame was replaced, not altered, so it would be useless for explaining the presence of the old number. This was not a mess I felt I needed to deal with as the purchaser of a new revolver, so I asked for and received a new replacement.

Some interesting observations about the new replacement, still unfired, which was manufactured only a couple of weeks ago: It does have TRD s/n like the original. The cylinder charge holes are not chamfered. The ejector is chamfered. Production change? The charge holes on the original I had were chamfered after the black finish was applied, showing bare metal. After it was sent back to me refinished, the chamfers were finished black. On the plus side, I tried some loose rounds in the new replacement, and they seem to seat at the same depth as with a moon clip, so I am relatively sure the gun will fire loose rounds (I'll test this soon). The upper side corners of the trigger may not be quite as sharp as the original but I will still need to round them off a little.

 

[onebadscrambler]

Originally posted by Careby:
It does have TRD s/n like the original.

Thanks, I was hoping this would be answered.
Danny