Why not a .45 for LEOs

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Back in the day the standard carry for a LEO was the .38, followed later by upgrading to the .357. Then came the semi autos, in various calibers such as the 9mm, 40 and 10. What ever happened to the .45? With various agencies you find various calibers, although now the 40 seems to be most popular. Question. Why didn't the .45 become the default cartridge for all LEOs and their agencies? Its been around for a long time and is a proven man-stopper. If I were back in uniform and had to carry a semi-auto it would be my first choice.
 
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Back in the day the standard carry for a LEO was the .38, followed later by upgrading to the .357. Then came the semi autos, in various calibers such as the 9mm, 40 and 10. What ever happened to the .45? With various agencies you find various calibers, although now the 40 seems to be most popular. Question. Why didn't the .45 become the default cartridge for all LEOs and their agencies? Its been around for a long time and is a proven man-stopper. If I were back in uniform and had to carry a semi-auto it would be my first choice.
Because it doesn't offer much these days over the other options except larger guns and less capacity? And those aren't usually benefits. The question I'd ask is why so many LEO still have .45s.
 
Because a LOT of departments (mine included) are going to a "one-size-fits-all" mentality with their sidearms. We have over 200 officers at my institution; male, female, VERY large, small, afraid of guns to active tactical shooters.

The .40 Glock that we just adopted is simple, reliable, and rugged. I, for one, would prefer a .45 to a .40, but the powers that be decided a .40 is better for everyone. It is easier to shoot, less recoil, less noise, and therefore less training time

Pete
 
A .40 has less recoil than a .45? I didn't think so. I don't have a .45 so I haven't shot them side by side, but will someone please let me know if this is true?
 
A .40 has less recoil than a .45? I didn't think so. I don't have a .45 so I haven't shot them side by side, but will someone please let me know if this is true?

Perception of recoil is going to vary a lot from shooter to shooter due to hand size/strength, stance, etc.

Generally, most people would tend to describe the .40 as "snappy", which to me describes a shorter recoil impulse with most guns. The .45's recoil seems to be spread out over a slightly longer time interval, so some might describe it as less recoil than a .40.

1911's in .45 which I have fired seem to have a lot of muzzle flip for me. The Glock 22's and 27 I own (and shoot a lot of) don't seem to display as much of it. I am sure there are many people that could say the exact opposite.
 
Wasn't this the thinking behind the .45 GAP? A .45 ACP power level round in a 9mm/.40 S&W grip size pistol.
 
American law enforcement used to use a lot of .45's but phased them out after the turn of the century, the last century. Over the years, especially the last 30, smaller rounds have been improved to the point there is little difference in their effectiveness for defensive use against human sized targets. A smaller round, of which more can be conveniently carried, makes sense.
 
Pardon me, but I carry a .45acp both working and not working. So do about 100 other LEO I know. There are two agencies in the tri state area that have gone to .45acp.

Many Feds carry .45acp.

Of course, there are those agencies that still believe the 9mm will stop superman and infiltrate the thickest building wall. It all boils down to cost. Ammo for a 9mm costs a little less than .45acp so the dept uses a 9mm due to cost rather than performance and officer safety.

It is my understanding that the US Army is going back to the 1911 in .45acp since it has been proven to be a better caliber/gun.

Does anyone know why the big bandwagon went over to the 9mm in the first place? Thank NATO and the UN for it. They wanted a less fatal round that would be universally accepted. I was at a seminar back in Feb and that was a topic of discussion. Locally, the 9mm lasted less than three yrs before being replaced. Just 10 miles away, another agency is going to the .40 from the 9mm after over 20 yrs. Theey learned it was not as effective for LE work.
 
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The 9mm bandwagon is still going strong by those in the know. It's a great round if you take out old wives tales and decades old technology out of the equation.
 
It is my understanding that the US Army is going back to the 1911 in .45acp since it has been proven to be a better caliber/gun.

I've heard some talk of them searching for a new .45ACP sidearm, but I seriously doubt it will be a 1911.
 
The 9mm bandwagon is still going strong by those in the know. It's a great round if you take out old wives tales and decades old technology out of the equation.

Not around here or those in the gun media. Even Glock is not pushing their 9mm any longer to LEA. While not a bad caliber, it is just not as effective caliber.

We can compare it to a 1/2 ton truck pulling a four horse slant load trailer to a one ton pulling the same. A 1/2 will work but not as well as the one ton. While both will start about the same, stopping is so much better with the one ton.
 
Caliber Wars, Part 186,000!

Caliber, for the most part, comes down to what best works for you. Especially with today's bullet technology, it matters less and less the caliber you carry. It always matters more where you put your rounds.

As far as law enforcement agencies choosing 9mm over .45 ACP, I can see where the administration bean-counters would pick the cheaper option - the 9mm.

Luckily, I'm not a bean-counter.:p
 
Pardon me, but I carry a .45acp both working and not working. So do about 100 other LEO I know. There are two agencies in the tri state area that have gone to .45acp....


That's cause it takes a tank to stop a gator...:D

It is my understanding that the US Army is going back to the 1911 in .45acp since it has been proven to be a better caliber/gun.

Some very special units use the 1911, but generally speaking for standard issue...still going to the be the M9 9mm for quite awhile....there were some trials started a few years ago for the standard issue pistol, but was cancealed, there are some trials going on now for a new SOF pistol, but it will be at least a year before anything comes out of that...
 
In the late 50's through the mid 70's, the weapon of choice for the San Francisco Police Department was the S&W 41mag. It was carried in a cross draw configuration under a double breasted long jacket. In the mid-70's, about the same time women were hired, we switched to N frame 28's which were 357mag. Over the next 15years, we switched from 38special loads to 357 SWC, 38+P+, but never a full power 357 JHP. We stayed with the S&W 357 concept but started buying K-Frame 19's and 66's w/no change in ballistics.

We could carry semi-auto's as backup weapons if approved by our range. Our primary weapon was still the 357, spitting out 38+p+ rounds.

Those of us who recognized the idiocy of this, and were working non-uniform assignments, requested 2" 19's as primary weapons and carried HEAT as back-up. Somehow the holsters got all mixed up- and the Heat rode in the place of honor. My choice of back-up was a SiG220, 45acp which for the good,bad, and ugly, was the friend I called on. It went 4 for 4, batting 1000 each time- it did what it was supposed too, where the 38, 357 did not. Suspects were getting hit 3-4 times, but continued to fight. I can personally attest to the stopping power of a 230gr. JHP.

Not until we lost a cop in a major gun battle, November 13, 1994 did our department change policy and issue semi-auto's. Prior to this, officer's at their own expense could carry 9mm or 45cal semi-auto's in uniform if approved. 40 cal's had not been the rage yet.
The issue of the day was 15 rounds of 9mm in the tube(round count)vs 8 rounds of 45(stopping power)? The purists still carried mod 28's w/6 rounds in the tube- 12 in speed-loaders.

As a quick side note: In the 1980's sometime??, L.A.P.D. did a study regarding the amount of shots fired during Officer Involved Shootings.
When revolvers were the weapon of choice, the average rounds shot per OIS (officer involved shooting) was 2.5. After Barretta 9mm's were issued, the round count went to 12+.

All these factors were thrown into whatever logic they used to develop the now industry standard of hi-cap 40cal semi-auto's. I would still be carrying my Sig200 if I could. Or my Novak 1911.

Was there a point to this story?
As the cops got smaller and weaker- do did the tools we used to keep us and the public safe.

That 41 was a heck of a nail driver- into everything.

Mike
LEO- Sergeant, retired
 
In the late 50's through the mid 70's, the weapon of choice for the San Francisco Police Department was the S&W 41mag. That 41 was a heck of a nail driver- into everything.

Mike
LEO- Sergeant, retired

I sure wish I could get my hands on one of those old .41mags. What length barrel did they have?

The same stats were around here as well. The avg shooting prior to the 9mm and back when everyone used either the model 19 or 66 was four shots. Within a year of the issue of Glock 9mm sidearms, the avg shooting took 12 rounds. Everyone called it the Pray & Spray method. We traded accuracy for capacity. Now the .40 is the weapon of choice, there is no more 9mm guns in service. A few non uniformed carries .45acp. There is some rumors that the next purchase will be .45acp but I do not think it will happen on this next purchase but maybe on down the road. Several other agencies have gone to the .45 and I look for more to do so but as was said, the bean counters do not care. It is not about officers lives but about money.
 
Jim Cirillo talked about the .41...but hey what does a guy carrying a revolver know....heavly laced with sarcasm.....
 
I've fired .45 autos, Smiths and Glocks, and it seemed there was less recoil than from my .357 revolver. And they held between 10 and 13 rounds, as I recall. All I can say is that if my life were on the line (as a LEO) if I couldn't have my .357 it would be a .45.
 
Back in the day the standard carry for a LEO was the .38, followed later by upgrading to the .357. Then came the semi autos, in various calibers such as the 9mm, 40 and 10. What ever happened to the .45? With various agencies you find various calibers, although now the 40 seems to be most popular. Question. Why didn't the .45 become the default cartridge for all LEOs and their agencies? Its been around for a long time and is a proven man-stopper. If I were back in uniform and had to carry a semi-auto it would be my first choice.

Sir, as far as I can tell, it's a strange web involving lots of things having nothing to do with what's best for the cop on the street.

Some of it's gun types. Back when the switch from revolvers to autos was gaining steam in the early '80s, the 1911 was about the only .45 auto commonly available. Unfortunately, a lot of police/municipal "powers that were" at the time were afraid of it. They thought it kicked too much and were downright alarmed by the concept of "cocked and locked" carry. Some still think this way today. The 1911 was also expensive, which didn't help.

So they largely went with DA/SA 9 mm autos, a number of which could be had from their old friendly suppliers at S&W, which was a plus. And so the powers were happy for a while, though Jeff Cooper scoffed about "crunchentickers."

In time, the 9 mm had a number of well-publicized failures, probably the most famous of which was the FBI's Miami Shootout. Whether the failures were problems with the 9 mm itself or deeper problems (poor marksmanship, bad procedure, insufficient training, ad infinitum) remain hotly debated to this day.

So anyway, perceptions about the 9 mm changed, and it was no longer deemed sufficient.

The FBI did a bunch of well-publicized tests (in which the .45 ACP fared quite well, BTW) and concluded that a light-loaded 10 mm was the way to go. Trouble is, the 10 mm requires a .45-size gun (many of which at the time were still 1911s--see "scary 1911" comments above), and which girls and little men presumably will have problems with. Oh, dear, what to do?

Along comes the .40 S&W, which just happens to ballistically duplicate the FBI's preferred "10 Lite." It fits in 9 mm size guns that aren't scary 1911s, and it isn't a sissy 9 mm or a primitive .45. Woot! The powers and the street cops all are delighted. Never mind that the .40 is harder to shoot well than the 9 mm (or the .45, for that matter) or that the original 9 mm size guns had to be beefed up substantially lest they take themselves apart at inopportune times.

Then along comes Gaston Glock with his marvelous inventions. They're cheap, reliable, accurate enough for people who don't shoot much (i.e., most cops), and cheap. Did I mention that they're cheap? Police/municipal powers again are delighted, street cops less so initially, but in time they warm up to the Glock. Eventually, the Glock becomes the gun, and anyone not shooting one is either a caveman or a dithering idiot. Never mind that Glock .40s blow up with some frequency or that even the smallest Glocks are great fat things that require longer than average fingers to grip well.

So we've ended up with an odd little high-pressure Goldilocks cartridge in a lowest-bidder gun that doesn't fit the small hands it's supposed to be intended for and that kicks like a much bigger gun. Contrast that with the old .45, a well-proven cartridge with easy recoil and that's now more effective than ever, available in a trim gun (1911) with a nice trigger that fits most hands out of the box and can be readily changed to fit others at either end of the scale.

Apparently the .45 just makes too much sense. Does that answer the question? :D

(Tongue in cheek here, but only a little.)

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
 
.45 For LEOs

I work as a LEO in small 16-man department in Western Mass. We all carry the Sig 220 in .45...nothing like shooting "ashtrays" at something...
 
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