Why not a .45 for LEOs

[WC145]

More rounds available is better when you consider 80% of all shots miss the intended targets. For a cop, the pistol is a tool of the trade, in fact one of the least used tools. With the exception of yearly qualifications, many police officers rarely fire their guns. Cops today have so many more dangers to face in todays world, I wish they could carry a belt fed gun.

Not all of us are the kind of cops you describe. And we carry 1911s.

 

[oldman45]

More rounds available is better when you consider 80% of all shots miss the intended targets. For a cop, the pistol is a tool of the trade, in fact one of the least used tools. With the exception of yearly qualifications, many police officers rarely fire their guns. Cops today have so many more dangers to face in todays world, I wish they could carry a belt fed gun.

I shoot mine about 4-7 times a month and 5-100 rounds per time. It is a 1911 in .45acp. Under stress, I can put 3 rounds in a 2 inch group at 25 feet in less than .75 second.

You are sadly correct. Many officers do not shoot their weapons or any other weapon enough to be considered good with it.

That is also the problem with 9mm guns. People say they cannot control a larger gun when the fact is they do not shoot a larger gun long enough to get comfortable with it. So they say the 9mm is all they can shoot. I am not saying a 9mm is not an effective gun either or those using a 9mm is less than manly. Departments using the .45acp has small framed men and women qualifying with them.

 

[SuperMan]

I worked in Dallas in the 1970s and 80s...they had a very simple policy...

They handed you a Model 15 or 64 with leather....you could then go out and buy any S&W, Colt or Browning revolver or semi in:

.380 (investigators only)
9mm
.38 Super
.357 Magnum
.41 Magnum
.44 Magnum
.45 Colt
.45 ACP
.45 Auto Rim

Ammo:
Issue was .38 Special +P 158 LSWC-HP. If you carried a .38 Special or .357 Magnum you could use departmental loaded ammo free to qualify. Any other caliber you bought your own for duty or qualification.

As to your own ammo...it was written right into the directives that anything that didn't explode or was incendiary was ok to carry...that includes handloaded ammo.

We had the best range staff anywhere...a sergeant and four full time ROs...
Every one had 10+ years on
Every one had killed someone in the line of duty
Every one but one was a hunter
Every one was a PPC competitor
They all knew how to train officers to shoot to live...not just qualify.

DPD officers were involved in 80+- on-duty shooting a year...with a 65% hit rate...when the rest of the country averaged 19%. With rare exceptions gunfights ended in under three rounds....that includes the semis...

I knew lots of the shooters. The only people I knew who often changed caliber after their first gunfight were those shooting .38 Specials. No one else. For every other caliber just put a decently constructed bullet where it is supposed to be and the fight usually ends quickly...

I've carried .38 Special (mandated), 9mm, .38 Super, .41 Magnum, .44 Special and .44 Magnum on duty and the only time I had little confidence in what I was carrying was .38 Special with 158 +P HPs and 9mm 147 subsonics...

If I was still a LEO I would want something chambered in .357 SIG. Modest recoil, lots of tactical penetration and excellent bullet expansion...

Bottom line is that it is much more important that the gun fits the individual officer and that they have confidence in their ability with it and the ammo being used. I took the SIG Tactical Pistol Instructors Course and one thing that stood out in their manual was that one gun should not be chosen for an entire department because one gun will not fit everyones hands. It's like ordering one size bullet proof vest for everyone....

Bob

 

[Muley Gil]

I carried a .45, either a 1911 or a revolver (1917-Colt and S&W, M625 ACP, M25-5) for most of my 25 year LE career. My experience was like SuperMan mostly-anything other than .38 special or 9mm, the officer paid for the ammo. I didn't care; I liked the bigger guns.

I had several folks over the years walk up, with fear on their faces, saying, "Did you know your gun is COCKED!!!!????" Most times, I would glance down and say, "Yep". If I was so inclined, I would explain that that was the way it was SUPPOSED to be carried.

 

[J.P.60]

In the U.S. 9mm has reigned king for two reasons only:
capacity of magazines and (primarily) cost of ammunition. Naturally, it didn't hurt that 9mm was the NATO round, either.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

Pardon me, but I carry a .45acp both working and not working. So do about 100 other LEO I know. There are two agencies in the tri state area that have gone to .45acp.

Many Feds carry .45acp.

Of course, there are those agencies that still believe the 9mm will stop superman and infiltrate the thickest building wall. It all boils down to cost. Ammo for a 9mm costs a little less than .45acp so the dept uses a 9mm due to cost rather than performance and officer safety.

It is my understanding that the US Army is going back to the 1911 in .45acp since it has been proven to be a better caliber/gun.

Does anyone know why the big bandwagon went over to the 9mm in the first place? Thank NATO and the UN for it. They wanted a less fatal round that would be universally accepted. I was at a seminar back in Feb and that was a topic of discussion. Locally, the 9mm lasted less than three yrs before being replaced. Just 10 miles away, another agency is going to the .40 from the 9mm after over 20 yrs. Theey learned it was not as effective for LE work.

I don't know about the Army, but a heavily customized 1911 is issued to Marines in the Marine Expeditionary Unit(SOC). They have heard rumors that they have removed the MP5 SMG as they have lost faith in the 9mm caliber. If the 1911 becomes standard issue for the Army again, I may choose the Army over the Marines after college(waiting till after to sign up, I'm going to die an educated man weather I'm 22 or 105)

 

[jlanecole]

I don't know about the Army, but a heavily customized 1911 is issued to Marines in the Marine Expeditionary Unit(SOC). They have heard rumors that they have removed the MP5 SMG as they have lost faith in the 9mm caliber. If the 1911 becomes standard issue for the Army again, I may choose the Army over the Marines after college(waiting till after to sign up, I'm going to die an educated man weather I'm 22 or 105)

No offense, but that doesn't sound like a very good reason to choose one branch over another, and even if they changed weapon systems (not likely in this economy) it almost certainly wouldn't be to a 1911.

 

[hatt]

I don't know about the Army, but a heavily customized 1911 is issued to Marines in the Marine Expeditionary Unit(SOC). They have heard rumors that they have removed the MP5 SMG as they have lost faith in the 9mm caliber. If the 1911 becomes standard issue for the Army again, I may choose the Army over the Marines after college(waiting till after to sign up, I'm going to die an educated man weather I'm 22 or 105)

Many are moving away from the MP5. Why have a pistol round that won't penetrate soft armor when you can have a rifle round that will in a similar sized package? It's nothing to do with the 9mm specifically. You'll notice they aren't moving to .45 subguns.

And the 1911 is never going to be standard issue again. Ever.

 

[russp1]

Caliber, for the most part, comes down to what best works for you. Especially with today's bullet technology, it matters less and less the caliber you carry. It always matters more where you put your rounds.

To me, this sums it up as good as it can be said!

 

[safearm]

The first department I worked at (Chicago suburbs) issued the M15. When they finally converted to a semi-auto (sometime in the late 80's after I had left), it was the Sig P220, which they still carry.
When I joined the Sheriff's Department in 1993, we carried whatever we wanted (and bought on our own) until the new sheriff was elected in 1996. He mandated the Glock 21 in .45ACP, and by the first 2 years of his term, everyone was issued a new Glock, and later issued a S&W 642 as a BUG.

 

[Don Dineen]

I see .45's in use all over the place. The hand size issue is big. I can't shoot the Glock M21 very well unless in slow deliberate fire. I was issued one, told the chief I couldn't shoot it. A trip to the target range showed him. On the way back we ordered a Glock M17 (the .40 didn't exist at the time) and I was the only one using it. We did several range sessions where the M21 shooters were slow and inaccurate. I could put out in tight clusters 9 rounds before the others could fire 4 rounds, with poor results. Soon the entire department was using the M17 or M19. When the .40 showed up we didn't change since we also issued the MP5 and used the same ammo. After I retired they went to .40 and AR-15 carbines.

 

[Rule 303]

The last Agency I worked for issued me a Sig P220 in .45acp.
We could carry a BUG as long as it was a Sig P230/232.

When I was a Chief of Police I allowed my officers to carry any Quality Made Revolver or Semi Auto Pistol and their own AR/Shotgun if they wanted and met the qualifications and training with the firearm. I supplied 870s in each vehicle.

Rule 303

 

[Springfeildkid585]

Many are moving away from the MP5. Why have a pistol round that won't penetrate soft armor when you can have a rifle round that will in a similar sized package? It's nothing to do with the 9mm specifically. You'll notice they aren't moving to .45 subguns.

And the 1911 is never going to be standard issue again. Ever.

My understanding was that the UMP .45 was replaceing the MP5. I understand the 1911 is not very likely, though I'd be happy to see the USP .45 or the FNP .45

 

[hatt]

My understanding was that the UMP .45 was replaceing the MP5. I understand the 1911 is not very likely, though I'd be happy to see the USP .45 or the FNP .45

HK dropped the MP5. Likely because the UMP is simpler, cheaper to build and the total market saturation of the MP5. And the UMP is available in 9mm, .40, .45.

 

[oldman45]

And the 1911 is never going to be standard issue again. Ever.

Never say never.

Now where are you talking about as standard issue?

Are you aware the 1911 is gaining in popularity, the .45acp is gaining in acceptance not only in the civilian market but also the LE market.

The oldest military item still in use today is the 1911 with several units using the 1911.

Name me one gun that is as popular as a 1911. I think the .45acp round is the cause of that popularity. It will take some checking but I think there are four agencies in the area using the .45acp but not in 1911. I will find out for sure today.

 

[hatt]

I'm pretty safe on this never say never call. No way the military is going to now transition to an expensive, mechanically complex, finicky, and difficult to teach handgun platform. Not with all the cheap, simple, reliable out of the box, and can be repaired by a 10 year old, that are available.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the 1911s popularity is because it's not a "plastic" gun. Which pretty much every defense type gun these days tends to be. For the first 80-90 years it wasn't all that popular.

I'm sure the .45 has a lot to do with it as well. People like a round that will knock people down if they have to shoot em.

There's no doubt the 1911 is very effective when used by highly trained folks. Take out the training and you just have a more expensive, heavy hunk of metal that's likely less effective than the cheaper, easier to use alternatives.

 

[daveh75]

To hatt and oldman45...both of you make some good points, but hatt hits closest to the mark. Specialized units within the entire SOF community might use 1911s or other pistols, but even the guys that wear the green beret still use the M9. A few years ago they were using the Brigadier slide to help with recoil, but they may have gone the way of the USMC and purchased the M9A1 which has a picatinny rail and a recoil block that is machined within the frame. The Navy guys that I had the pleasure of meeting my last trip carried the P226 in 9mm. I can't say for certain but some of their specialized units might carry 1911s or other pistols, but all of them that I met had Sigs. The current trials for a new SOF pistol might go to a .45 cal but I seriously doubt that it will be single stack as what I read on the requirements called for high capacity magazines. hatt also makes a good point about expense...DoD is not about to re-budget for a pistol platform for the masses...they can use funds for SOF stuff but it would cost way too much to transition to a completely new platform for standard issue. Besides, Beretta just got two new contracts, one for DA to replace/repair and one for the USMC to issue...just me

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Those of us who recognized the idiocy of this, and were working non-uniform assignments, requested 2" 19's as primary weapons and carried HEAT as back-up. Somehow the holsters got all mixed up- and the Heat rode in the place of honor.

Can anyone explain what HEAT, used in this context, is? Where I come from HEAT = High Explosive Anti-Tank rounds. I seriously doubt this is the same thing.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[oldman45]

There are many units using the 1911 and pretty much always have. The Army, Marines and Seals use the 1911.

As far as being complex as one said, it is very simple. The 1911 is the only firearm I know that has a built in tool kit and a person needs only the gun to disassemble it.

Now as to those that may not like the 1911, it is only due to them not owning one. Once a person learns to properly handle and shoot a 1911, they do not want any other gun.

Again, I have said this before, people do not take time to learn the 1911 unless you carried one in the military or some other agency for a long time and got accustomed to what it does and what it offers. Most 1911 owners simply pull the trigger and never bother to learn the techniques to master the gun. There are reasons why specialized units get 1911 firearms, why the military still uses it after 100 yrs of service and why it is one of the most sought after guns today.

 

[OFT II]

Can anyone explain what HEAT, used in this context, is? Where I come from HEAT = High Explosive Anti-Tank rounds. I seriously doubt this is the same thing.

Thanks,

Dave

That what it was when I was in the Army. Of course, a few HEAT rounds should take care of about any problem encountered.