Why the decline of S&W 40?

[sigp220.45]

I thought the guys in the Florida Shootout had body armor on? Would a better bullet had solved that issue?

Rosewood

If you mean the 4/11/86 shootout in Miami - neither of the bad guys wore body armor.

 

[URIT]

The guys in the Florida shootout were trained to double-tap to center mass. Hopefully, we've learned that center mass isn't always the best choice.

 

[swsig]

Just as well, I heard that S&W stopped chambering the M&P Series in .357 SIG because they kept getting them sent in for service by the Texas Rangers, and has subsequently gone on to advise against converting the M&P to .357 SIG using aftermarket conversion barrels. Which is a shame because apparently those who own them swear by them, so I guess they either don't hold up well to extensive use or otherwise some of the more *ahem* "equal opportunity employees" within the Texas Rangers were limp-wristing them.

My experience is that my M&P 40c has held up very well as a .357 SIG. It has over 2,500 .357 SIG rounds though it without any issues, after firing over 13,000 rounds of .40 S&W. You can read a more detailed report on my 40c here:
Long-Term Report on M&P 40c, Shield 9, & Shield 45

As to the Texas Rangers, I would be surprised if a Texas Ranger limp wristed anything. Rangers are a small, elite group within the Texas Department of Public Safety, responsible for carrying out criminal investigations that other agencies can't solve. Now, it's possible that the DPS's other major law enforcement group, the Texas Highway Patrol, had M&P issues, because they are a much larger organization.

 

[rosewood]

If you mean the 4/11/86 shootout in Miami - neither of the bad guys wore body armor.

That must have been the shootout in Hollywood?? I am thinking about?

 

[sigp220.45]

That must have been the shootout in Hollywood?? I am thinking about?

Oh yeah - those boys had all kinds of body armor on.

 

[Ranger514]

I duty carried a Sig P229 .40 cal. from 1995 to 2015, and never had an issue until the extractor broke after somewhere over 20K rounds of 180 gr. HP had passed through the bore. I was a firearms instructor and Sig armorer, and I never felt the .40 P229 had excesive recoil in comparison to 9mm, nor did the.40 cal. create undo damage to Sig frames or other components.

Funny how the .40 became the latest/greatest after the 9mm was judged ineffective. Now, the tables are turned. Like the weather, more changes will occur, and the .40 cal. isn't dead yet.

 

[Dave Lively]

I thought the guys in the Florida Shootout had body armor on? Would a better bullet had solved that issue? Rosewood

If they were wearing body armor a 40 would not have solved the issue either.

 

[rosewood]

If they were wearing body armor a 40 would not have solved the issue either.

Nope, only a rifle would have turned the tides.

 

[Gas tube]

I would buy a 40 before a 9mm

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Harder for some to shoot well and it not the newest flavor on the list . I don't own one anymore but it's because I did not like the pistol I bought not the cartridge . Would not hesitate to buy one if I found one with a trigger pull I could stomach .

 

[lrrifleman]

Let me turn the tables a little. I will try to represent this as a school board President that is committed to the safety of the students and staff.

How many departments (today) encourage their officers to hit the range t to practice on a regular basis, as opposed to annual or semi-annual qualification?

How many departments encourage officers to participate in PPC matches, or even support a departmental PPC team?

What scares the bejesus out of me is the increase in the number of domestic violence events and mass shootings where hostages can be taken. I know that based on the marksmanship skills that I have both read about and witnessed within today's law enforcement community, I am beyond mortified at the prospect that the average officer that is first on scene may fire at the perpetrator and hit an innocent.

I can remember the time when most officers (carrying a revolver) could confidently engage an neutralize an armed suspect out to about 40 yards or so. Today, that scenario would most likely require a SEAT call up, which could even then result in an unacceptable level of collateral damage.

Bottom line, when did marksmanship become a secondary or tertiary skill set for law enforcement officers? As always, it is the well placed shot that will end the immediate threat. Theoretically, the caliber and capacity of the duty arm should be secondary to the officer's ability.

 

[Univibe]

...if you can't hit the target reliably with a handgun, it doesn't matter what caliber you are using. Might as well use a 9mm in places that pistols work and switch to a carbine or rifle if the handgun isn't up to the job.

This is the truth, and I'd add "If you CAN hit the target
reliably with a handgun, it doesn't matter what caliber you are using."

 

[Echo40]

I've actually been seeing a fair amount of talk regarding a possible comeback of the .40 S&W in the civilian market. Supposedly all of the police trade-in deals were indeed too good to pass up, so now a lot more folks who would have otherwise never purchased a .40 S&W pistol own one and have actually come to discover that the supposedly wrist-snapping recoil of the .40 S&W cartridge actually isn't so bad, especially not in the heavy duty service pistols which have flooded the market over the past few years. So now more folks own .40s, and obviously enjoy shooting them seeing as sales of .40cal ammo are on the rise.

Granted that it could be in part due to COVID-19 panic-buyers, but these threads started showing up prior to any of that.

My only hope is that if .40 S&W is indeed making a comeback, then prices will remain low until I can pickup a Ruger SR40c. I've been wanting one since last year and their prices are at an all-time low at under $300 brand new.

 

[ejr10mm]

It all comes down to $$$. "Training" is turning into 30-45 min online videos with a 10 question quiz at the end. It's sad and the reason for a lot of these dumb accidents and poorly performing police officers.

 

[tops]

I think a .40 cal auto is like a .41 cal revolver and a 16 ga. shotgun. 2 big 2 be little and 2 little 2 be big. Don't sit on the fence. Make a decision and pick a side. Larry

 

[rosewood]

I think it is political correctness on the lack of practice shooting. There are so many politicians (many times are in charge of the police force) that don't like guns, they would prefer the cops to not even carry them. They would prefer them carry clubs like they do in England or even nothing like Andy Taylor. Having them shoot a lot implies they think carrying is a good idea. Also, shooting a lot cost money and budgets for LE is usually tight.

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

I think a .40 cal auto is like a .41 cal revolver and a 16 ga. shotgun. 2 big 2 be little and 2 little 2 be big. Don't sit on the fence. Make a decision and pick a side. Larry

I prefer to think of it as goldilocks!

 

[Bladeswitcher]

I've actually been seeing a fair amount of talk regarding a possible comeback of the .40 S&W in the civilian market. Supposedly all of the police trade-in deals were indeed too good to pass up, so now a lot more folks who would have otherwise never purchased a .40 S&W pistol own one and have actually come to discover that the supposedly wrist-snapping recoil of the .40 S&W cartridge actually isn't so bad, especially not in the heavy duty service pistols which have flooded the market over the past few years. So now more folks own .40s, and obviously enjoy shooting them seeing as sales of .40cal ammo are on the rise . . .

I never had a desire for a .40 S&W until AIM Surplus ran a batch of surplus M&P40 pistols at $229. I picked one up simply because it was barely more expensive than a Hi-Point or Rough Rider. Who could pass that up?

I can't say I've become a .40 fan, really, but I appreciate having something in the caliber simply for ammo availability reasons. I'm still more of a 9mm, .38, .22 guy but I like the M&P well enough. In fact, when a good deal on ex-cop M&P9s came along, I picked one of those up, too . . .

 

[342ti]

It's only REAL downfall, is it's an "In between" cartridge, NONE of them, rifle/pistol have any longevity. I still can't believe the 10mm's still around! It's loud, heavy recoil, and STILL not a magnum.

 

[jim lock]

Why should I care if a round is sub-sonic or not?? Such as the 40 cal.
Jim

 

[typetwelve]

All I can talk about is my little microcosm...but I don't know anyone personally who enjoys shooting one, I know I don't. With the hot magnum revolver loads I make and shoot, I'm far from recoil sensitive, but I don't like shooting 40 in a polymer semi auto pistol. Case in point, I have a XD "sub compact" in 9mm and my uncle has the exact same one in 40. Back to back, it shows you how much more difficult the 40 is to control. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it's more difficult. He traded his in on a 9mm after that range session.

 

[cowboy4evr]

We all are different . I have a S&W MP 40 Compact . I don't mind shooting it , don't find the recoil a problem . My S&W J-frame 640 was shot so much using +P loads I really loosened it up . When I called the factory I told them exactly why . The CS just chuckled and told me to send it back . I don't find it bothersome to shoot either . Regards Paul

 

[Echo40]

It's only REAL downfall, is it's an "In between" cartridge, NONE of them, rifle/pistol have any longevity. I still can't believe the 10mm's still around! It's loud, heavy recoil, and STILL not a magnum.

Huh? What are you on about, plenty of intermediate cartridges have been around for a very long time. Heck, what was the 9mm before .40 S&W came along but an intermediary between .380 ACP and .45 ACP? As for 10mm Auto not being a magnum cartridge, the only reason why it isn't a magnum cartridge is because "Magnum" isn't in its name. Seriously, full-power 10mm loads are at the very least equal to full-power .357 Magnum loads, and with a larger diameter bullet to boot.

The biggest issue with 10mm Auto is that the vast majority of Commercial factory loaded 10mm ammo is nothing more than .40 S&W in a longer case. If more ammo manufacturers would load it to full spec, then it would be excellent. Honestly, I was actually shopping for a 10mm right up until I learned that you either had to reload or pay a huge premium to get real full-power 10mm loads.

Lastly, what determines the longevity of a cartridge anyway? To this day ammo manufacturers continue to load cartridges which are practically dead like .44-40/.38-40 WCF, .38 S&W, 7.62 Tokarev, 7.65 Luger, and 9x18 Makarov, 9x18 Ultra/Police regardless of the fact that nobody makes firearms chambered in them anymore save for maybe reproductions. So if cartridges dating back to well over a century ago are still in limited production, why is everyone so certain that .40 S&W is just going to be discontinued entirely within a decade or two?
Besides, sometimes cartridges make comebacks or otherwise remain relevant or in production long after falling out of favor with Military/LE. Consider the .45 Long Colt, it was only in Military service for a very short time, even shorter than .40 S&W, but it remained popular/relevant due to its reputation for effectiveness. Folks need to understand that the Military nor Law Enforcement aren't really concerned with what is the most combat effective, but with what is most cost effective. Combat effectiveness is obviously still a concern, but it's a secondary concern.

 

[rosewood]

It's only REAL downfall, is it's an "In between" cartridge, NONE of them, rifle/pistol have any longevity. I still can't believe the 10mm's still around! It's loud, heavy recoil, and STILL not a magnum.

Love my 10mms, would be the last guns I would give up. The 10mm has higher chamber pressures than the 44 magnum. Not sure what defines a cartridge as a "magnum".

Rosewood

 

[typetwelve]

The biggest issue with 10mm Auto is that the vast majority of Commercial factory loaded 10mm ammo is nothing more than .40 S&W in a longer case. If more ammo manufacturers would load it to full spec, then it would be excellent. Honestly, I was actually shopping for a 10mm right up until I learned that you either had to reload or pay a huge premium to get real full-power 10mm loads.

This seems to be the case with most factory ammo, it's all middle of the road. Unless you buy the "hot stuff" from small batch manufacturers, it all seems to be this way.

I didn't really experience what 44 magnum could do until I started reloading for it...

 

[Echo40]

This seems to be the case with most factory ammo, it's all middle of the road. Unless you buy the "hot stuff" from small batch manufacturers, it all seems to be this way.

I didn't really experience what 44 magnum could do until I started reloading for it...

While some factory loaded ammo typically runs shy of SAAMI Specifications, 10mm Auto is much more significant. Full-power 10mm will push a 200gr bullet at 1200fps or a 180gr bullet at 1300fps, but most factory loaded ammo is loaded to FBI Specifications, which launches a 180gr bullet at about 1000fps. For reference, typical factory loaded .40 S&W ammo will launch a 180gr bullet at about 950fps, and while that may seem like the 10mm is at least loaded slightly hotter, it's actually because most factory loaded 10mm ammo is chronographed from a 5" barrel whereas .40 S&W is more commonly chronographed from a 4" barrel.

 

[Dave Lively]

While some factory loaded ammo typically runs shy of SAAMI Specifications, 10mm Auto is much more significant. Full-power 10mm will push a 200gr bullet at 1200fps or a 180gr bullet at 1300fps, but most factory loaded ammo is loaded to FBI Specifications, which launches a 180gr bullet at about 1000fps.

It is easy to measure velocity these days but pressure data is very elusive. I wouldn't be surprised if the stuff that you can get from Buffalo Bore and Underwood is really 10mm +P. The pressure difference between 40 and 10mm is only 7%, 35,000 vs 37500. The case is larger so slower powder can be used but that helps more with longer barrels than the more common 4 to 5 inch barrels. Expecting 70% more power from 7% more pressure isn't realistic.

I freely admit I have never seen any pressure data from a reliable source but my gut feel is that Sig 10mm ammo is about as hot as you can get with SAAMI pressure levels. A bit more energy than a 357 with a heavier bullet out a semiauto pistol is pretty impressive even if it does not meet the original claims made by Norma. Notice I said claims. If you search for tests of the original Norma ammo on YouTube you should be able to find a couple of videos. The "full-power" Norma ammo typically comes in 150 to 200 fps slower than the numbers printed on the box. It was a lot easier to get away with inflated velocity numbers before there were lots of channels on YouTube testing ammo.

ETA:
Test of Norma 170 grain - Actual velocity 1219 fps
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMtg1Q6vP3k&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=2&t=0s[/ame]

Test of Norma 200 grain, also about 200 fps short of advertised velocity (Skip to about the 20 minute mark):
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-e3BTkzr_M&list=PLNw5las6Yz2hN2bw58cNhxfaZhJzvEi_h&index=3&t=0s[/ame]

I don't think it is a coincidence that velocity numbers suddenly decreased when affordable chronographs became available. Happened not just with 10mm but also with 44 and 357 magnums as well as some rifle cartridges.

 

[Echo40]

Perhaps I'm beting overly optimistic here, but I'm more apt to believe that the differences between the velocity printed on ammo boxes and what shows up in chronographs has more to do with the fact that due to the inconsistent nature of gunpowder, the subsequent effects on burn rate, and the fact that their chronograph tests are most likely conducted indoors where atmospheric conditions cannot affect readings as much than ammo manufacturers outright lying.

The fact of the matter is that the velocities printed on ammo boxes are more of an estimate or perhaps even a guestimate than 100% accurate approximations of the kind of velocity one can expect from the ammo when they shoot it.
Factually speaking, gunpowder cannot always be consistently measured because it can clump, flake, cake, and settle, which can effect the rate in which it burns when ignited, thus altering the potential results, ergo freshly loaded ammo tested on site at the factory could potentially have a faster burn rate than say a box of 10mm ammo that has been transported over long distances, stored under a variety of conditions while in transit, sat on a shelf for a very long time prior to being fired, and potentially was even stored under less-than-ideal environmental conditions.

Sure, they could be exaggerating the numbers, rounding them off to the highest ten, or just plain being overly optimistic regarding the mean average velocity one can expect due to numbers they received by testing under laboratory perfect conditions which simply do not exist in the field, but I don't think that they're an outright lie. If they were, then I assume that somebody would have attempted to file a lawsuit against these ammo manufacturers for deceptive marketing by now, and likely won considering that the product is intended for Self-Defense purposes which is needless to say of the utmost importance.
Heck, we have people successfully suing firearms/ammo manufacturers just because their products were used in shootings, so it doesn't seem at all out of the question that they could be successfully sued because the ammo was ineffective at stopping a threat and the case was made that it was due to the ammo's specifications being misleading or something.

I think the results of ammo testing are not unless the results of following a recipe and getting a different result. Ammo chronographed indoors is just going to get a different result than ammo chronographed outdoors, just like how a cake baked in an electric oven is going to turn out different than a cake baked in a conventional gas oven, or how icing made with spring water is going to turn out differently than icing made with tap water.

 

[rosewood]

I don't think it is a coincidence that velocity numbers suddenly decreased when affordable chronographs became available. Happened not just with 10mm but also with 44 and 357 magnums as well as some rifle cartridges.

Could be, but also could because of the increase of frivolous law suits and paranoia from the manufactures. That is real interesting with the Norma Ammo. The guy justified it as maybe being old from sitting attic. I don't buy that, I think that is what it was loaded to begin with.

I have a 200 grain WFNGC that I load in the 10mm using longshot powder and my chrony reads it at 1225 FPS. I am selective on what guns I shoot it out of though. It is a P16-40 with a 10mm bbl that is my hunting pistol that always goes with me regardless of the rifle I choose for the hunt. And surprisingly, even with such a hot load, I shoot it better than other less recoiling loads and guns.

Rosewood

 

[mike from st pete]

0bama did it!

According to one estimate, just since last spring DHS has stockpiled more than 1.6 billion bullets, mainly .40 caliber and 9mm. That's sufficient firepower to shoot every American about five times. Including illegal immigrants


Why are the feds loading up on so much ammo? | Investor's Business Daily