Why wadcutters for self-defense?
- Thread starter Triggernosis
- Start date
"Wadcutters are always more accurate, for me, than any other ammo."
I'm not trying to be mean, but there shouldn't be any difference in accuracy between a wadcutter and FMJ, plated, or anything else at a self defense distance. Point of aim may vary on fixed sights guns, but it's not like we're shooting 20 yards for "self defense"...
I'm not trying to be mean, but there shouldn't be any difference in accuracy between a wadcutter and FMJ, plated, or anything else at a self defense distance. Point of aim may vary on fixed sights guns, but it's not like we're shooting 20 yards for "self defense"...
SuperMan
Member
...Point Of Aim...in a gunfight. Go look at the real gun fights over on YouTube and LiveLeak and let me know when you find one where someone actually even looks like they are using the sights. Get REAL good at point shooting out to 10 yards and your hit probability in a gunfight will go up 200%.
Most people have never chronoed their defensive load to see what it is actually doing from their gun. Rounds that are supposed to be doing in the 900s often barely make 700 from a snubbie. I had friend one friend who shot a guy at about 10' that was trying to shoot him with the 158 +P HPSWC from a Model 60 and the round stuck in the guys neck. Another shot a guy point blank in the face with a 4" and it bounced off his cheekbone... If you read the FBI Shootout report you will find the same thing. One of Mirales' last shots was at about 8' into Matix's head hit just below the left eye and stopped right there...
I have three .38 snubbies that I have also been looking for a reliable factory round for carry. One is an older Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard that is an ex-Michigan SP backup gun with stainless cylinder. Loads have to be kept light in this one. The second is a 60-1 with adjustable sights and the last a 649-1 that has been modified to shoot not only the original .38 Special but also .38 Super and 9mm.
When I was a LEO I also had a ammo manufacturing license. One of the rounds I produced was a snubbie round using an original Hydra-Shok Scorpion WC bullet at 900 fps from a snubbie. It had both violent expansion and because the cone broke off the pointed bullet also penetrated deeply.
This bullet was made by Albert's Bullet Company but unfortunately when Federal bought HS they didn't keep this round in their line...too bad as it's the best snubbie round I ever used...
Bob
Most people have never chronoed their defensive load to see what it is actually doing from their gun. Rounds that are supposed to be doing in the 900s often barely make 700 from a snubbie. I had friend one friend who shot a guy at about 10' that was trying to shoot him with the 158 +P HPSWC from a Model 60 and the round stuck in the guys neck. Another shot a guy point blank in the face with a 4" and it bounced off his cheekbone... If you read the FBI Shootout report you will find the same thing. One of Mirales' last shots was at about 8' into Matix's head hit just below the left eye and stopped right there...
I have three .38 snubbies that I have also been looking for a reliable factory round for carry. One is an older Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard that is an ex-Michigan SP backup gun with stainless cylinder. Loads have to be kept light in this one. The second is a 60-1 with adjustable sights and the last a 649-1 that has been modified to shoot not only the original .38 Special but also .38 Super and 9mm.
When I was a LEO I also had a ammo manufacturing license. One of the rounds I produced was a snubbie round using an original Hydra-Shok Scorpion WC bullet at 900 fps from a snubbie. It had both violent expansion and because the cone broke off the pointed bullet also penetrated deeply.
This bullet was made by Albert's Bullet Company but unfortunately when Federal bought HS they didn't keep this round in their line...too bad as it's the best snubbie round I ever used...
Bob
pete950
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...Point Of Aim...in a gunfight. Go look at the real gun fights over on YouTube and LiveLeak and let me know when you find one where someone actually even looks like they are using the sights. Get REAL good at point shooting out to 10 yards and your hit probability in a gunfight will go up 200%.
Most people have never chronoed their defensive load to see what it is actually doing from their gun. Rounds that are supposed to be doing in the 900s often barely make 700 from a snubbie. I had friend one friend who shot a guy at about 10' that was trying to shoot him with the 158 +P HPSWC from a Model 60 and the round stuck in the guys neck. Another shot a guy point blank in the face with a 4" and it bounced off his cheekbone... If you read the FBI Shootout report you will find the same thing. One of Mirales' last shots was at about 8' into Matix's head hit just below the left eye and stopped right there...
I have three .38 snubbies that I have also been looking for a reliable factory round for carry. One is an older Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard that is an ex-Michigan SP backup gun with stainless cylinder. Loads have to be kept light in this one. The second is a 60-1 with adjustable sights and the last a 649-1 that has been modified to shoot not only the original .38 Special but also .38 Super and 9mm.
When I was a LEO I also had a ammo manufacturing license. One of the rounds I produced was a snubbie round using an original Hydra-Shok Scorpion WC bullet at 900 fps from a snubbie. It had both violent expansion and because the cone broke off the pointed bullet also penetrated deeply.
This bullet was made by Albert's Bullet Company but unfortunately when Federal bought HS they didn't keep this round in their line...too bad as it's the best snubbie round I ever used...
Bob
When you were loading these bullets can you share your load data?
I have 130 of these Alberts HS bullets left.
SuperMan
Member
PM sent...
Typical wadcutters are barely pushing mid 600fps in snubbies, I've chrono'd them in my 442 and .357 LCR, 620-630fps in both guns avg.
Too slow and too soft, IMO....especially against something with large bones protecting their vital organs.
The Buffalo Bore has a better idea with hardcast and much better velocity, but like others have observed, they will suck in a speedload.
I shot them at the bullseye range not long ago, 25yrds. They both are a little off POA from the smith and Ruger, but they were consistent.
As far as corbon DPX goes, I like the bullet OK, but don't trust the weak sauce ballistics being put up by corbon as of late. I'd pick the 135gr Gold Dot which does right by the chrono and appears to to deliver in actual shootings.
Too slow and too soft, IMO....especially against something with large bones protecting their vital organs.
The Buffalo Bore has a better idea with hardcast and much better velocity, but like others have observed, they will suck in a speedload.
I shot them at the bullseye range not long ago, 25yrds. They both are a little off POA from the smith and Ruger, but they were consistent.
As far as corbon DPX goes, I like the bullet OK, but don't trust the weak sauce ballistics being put up by corbon as of late. I'd pick the 135gr Gold Dot which does right by the chrono and appears to to deliver in actual shootings.
SuperMan
Member
Last time I chronoed the 135 GD HP it was running less than 900 from a 4". From a 2" probably close to 800...
Bob
Bob
Cal44
Member
FWIW, this guy did a ballistics gel test on 135 GD 38+p and said he got an average of 835 FPS from a 2" J frame barrel.
Pretty good expansion for a low velocity bullet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k890Rio2oBY
Shooter6br
Member
Ed Harris has an article on wadcutters formSD Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter | Reloading, Ammunition, Hunting | GrantCunningham.com
Cal44
Member
I have that same issue with Buffalo Bore 32 S&W long ammo for my 31-1.
My solution is to carry the gun loaded with the BB flat point wad cutters and carry the BB 115 grn round nose flat point as the reload because it's easier to load.
Shooter6br
Member
I too have chronoed the Speer .38spl 135gr+P from a 1.875" barrel. In the hot summer I averaged 858fps at 102 degrees, 842fps at 38 degrees, and 833fps at 12 degrees. Ammo and firearm were left outside for at least an hour to match the environment temps.
There was some internet gel testing by an individual who was claiming that the 642 was effected by cold such that in the winter velocity would drop down to around 770fps causing expansion problems in denim covered gel. My thoughts are that either he got a bad batch of ammo, or his 642 is out of spec....perhaps too much cylinder gap.
There was some internet gel testing by an individual who was claiming that the 642 was effected by cold such that in the winter velocity would drop down to around 770fps causing expansion problems in denim covered gel. My thoughts are that either he got a bad batch of ammo, or his 642 is out of spec....perhaps too much cylinder gap.
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SuperMan
Member
Have to find my notes but I believe this split open the carton, and the first jug and found in the second...
IWO LPH-2
Member
I know this is a real old thread, but I'm new to the forum and I recently found several hundred rounds of Zero Unconditionally Guaranteed .38 special 148 gr wadcutters. I think theses bullets could be from the late 70's or early 80's and was wondering if they are still safe to fire. I also have several boxes of 3-D Co. inc .38 special Police Cartridges, Western .38 sp. 158 gr. and winchester .32 Auto 71 gr. F.M.C..
One of the boxes had what appeared to be a date code of 18 20KK82 thats why I gave the date range.
Any info or input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Paul
One of the boxes had what appeared to be a date code of 18 20KK82 thats why I gave the date range.
Any info or input would be appreciated.
Thanks
Paul
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Nor does he recommend using solid non-HP bullets for SD in service calibers because of the known hazard of such bullets over penetrating an attacker's body.
Rpg
Member
It's because you could not use loading data as evidence. Say you whipped up some mild handloads for defense because you're injured, you want your wife to be able to defend herself, whatever the reason. Time comes that you have to shoot a guy who is rapidly approaching you. He was 2 feet away when you shot him, but he says he was 15 and posing no threat. Because of your mild handload, the gunshot residue is very light on him, seemingly confirming his version of the distance, and the prosecutor goes after you. You cannot introduce your loading data showing why the GSR was like that, because you literally manufactured the evidence. With factor rounds, the factory's data CAN be used as evidence. Without getting up to go look through the book, I believe that a like scenario happened the the case of Daniel Bias. His wife died by a gunshot. He said she was holding the gun to her head, he grabbed it, they struggled, it went off and killed her. The GSR was very light, because he made mild handloads for her. The prosecutor's argument was that with the GSR being that light, the shot had to come from farther away, and that he murdered his wife, not her killing herself.
Iceberg1
Member
The 148 gr HBWC, loaded with the cavity forward, is still an excellent SD round. Fired into a block of firewood it expands to approximately 60 caliber and penetrates more than 4". Haven't tried it in gelatin or anything else. I figure it'll do the job at 850 fps and not be too harsh on my 1927 M&P. I've also found that reloading WC in a hurry is near impossible. I carry a speed loader with Hornady XTPs in 115 gr. Fast loading but at 850 fps it doesn't expand well in wood. Maybe it would be better to try it in another medium. Tried the 148HBWC in water jugs, penetrated 15" of jugs and bounced off block of wood. It only expanded to approximately 45 caliber. I'm new to this testing stuff so I'm not sure what this all means, but I'll stick with the recommendation of an old friend and use this combination.
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OldSquid
Member
I can only wish I had as much as that.
I've got the Remington version of that load, and it's what I keep in my snubby. The old FBI Load is a nasty beast of a round. That big old cavernous hollow point wad cutter is hard to beat, and it's been effectively inducing thugs to take dirt naps for decades now.
