Win. Model 70 suggestions

[leswad]

I am not a rifle collector, but have always wanted a Pre 64 model 70. A few months ago a buddy was liquidating a widows estate and I purchased this gun unseen as it was only around a $650 investment and the description I was told was excellent. Well I got my hands on it and it is a 300 win mag that was built in the 1950's. it has a strange scope mount on it, and I was thinking I might find a period scope for it, or replace with a newer setup. I was also thinking about taking the mounts off and finding an original front iron sight. Opinions?

 

[rockquarry]

I can't make out the chambering designation on the barrel. What does it read? The .300 Winchester Magnum cartridge wasn't around in the '50s, so if that is what it is now, it has been rechambered, probably from .300 H&H Magnum. If the bore and all is in decent shape, you probably made a good buy, despite the rifle being a shooter rather than all original.

 

[jaykellogg]

It is a Winchester barrel and it is marked .300 magnum.

300 H&H 1935
300 Winchester 1963
300 Weatherby 1948

 

[Fishinfool]

Not a model 70 expert, but have owned a few, and like them. Unless re-chambered, it is almost certainly a .300 Holland & Holland Magnum. Final year, late production pre-64's were made in 300 Win Mag, but not many... Maybe 5000 I read somewhere. The year of your gun, and stock style argue against that.

The rifle appears in excellent condition for its age, and should be worth quite a bit more then you paid for it. Condition, caliber, and rarity are important in pre-64 model 70's.

That front scope mount looks like it might be a "Control" brand base, designed for their specific rings (Still in business). It could be removed, or the bases could be replaced with a different make / style of your choosing.

The dovetailed rear sight, as well as the front are available used, original from places like Gun Parts Corp., as are modern replacements that will fit properly, and basically look the same as stock.

If I planned to hunt the gun, I would definitely scope it, to take advantage of its accuracy and range. To sell to a collector, set up with just stock iron sights would be more desirable. Avoid "touching up" the stock or bluing as it will decrease value.

Larry

 

[leswad]

It is a Winchester barrel and it is marked .300 magnum.

300 H&H 1935
300 Winchester 1963
300 Weatherby 1948

Just checked and all it states is .300 MAGNUM

 

[perrazi]

unless rechambered for 300 weatherby it is a 300 h&h. this has what was called the long mag action and was only used for the 300 and 375 h&h. 300 win mag was only produced in 1963 in the pre-64 style. can always tell the long mags as they have cut in the rear bridge to clear the long cartridge.

 

[kwselke]

I remember looking at an old bolt action rifle with a barrel stamp of .30 Government. It ended up being 30-40 Krag. It is funny how nomenclature changes over time. My bet is your Model 70 is 300 H & H, but I'd check it out thoroughly before investing in dies and brass.

 

[2152hq]

Nice M70. For the era, condition and caliber I think you did very well.
Look it over to make sure no conversion to Weatherby Mag has been done before loading her up..
I usually see very beat up 30-06's going for that price along w/the bold,exciting remark printed on the price tag of !! pre-'64 !! .

 

[Texas Star]

I also think the rifle is too old to be in 300 Win. Mag. But I'd have a gunsmith check to be sure it hasn't been altered to, say, .300 Weatherby. The bbl. should be marked if it has, but some do-ir-yourselfers might not do that.

The .300 H&H is a good ctg. and with modern loads is plenty potent. I wouldn't alter it.

 

[Nframecollector]

Very nice!

 

[Tom K]

...

That front scope mount looks like it might be a "Control" brand base, designed for their specific rings (Still in business). It could be removed, or the bases could be replaced with a different make / style of your choosing.

....

Not "Control", but "Conetrol" with an "e" in the middle. Send them some closeup pictures of the mounts and they might be able to help you out.

Projectionless Scope Mount Stainless Steel Rifle Scope Mounts Rings

 

[kimporter]

those base's are made by Buehler,and they are period correct for that rifle,you can find rings on fleabay all the time

 

[happy jackson]

pre 64 mod 70

Kimporter correctly identified the bases as Buehler.You must use Buehler rings with these bases.I don't think Buehler has been around for some time so finding the rings will be a problem.As to the caliber, I believe it to be a 300 Winchester magnum unless it has been rechambered.I have a 1955 pre 64 in 300 H&H magnum and that is what is marked on the barrel.If it an original 300 Win mag it is worth more than the price you stated.Hope this helps.

 

[2152hq]

Up to 1950, the roll die imprint for 300 H&H Magnum chambering was '300 MAGNUM'.
In 1950, Winchester made a change in their roll die machine equipment that allowed a longer imprint and a different diameter & style roll die had to be used.
They had to have the dies remade and in doing so they had several of the caliber designations changed or upgraded for lack of a better term.

One that was changed was the '300 MAGNUM' designation. It was changed to a roll die reading '300 H&H MAGNUM'.

Not ready to discard anything, old stock bbls with the older style imprint would still be used up. There was never any system to this 'using up old stock parts' and one could show up later in assembly production.

The 300 Winchester Magnum roll die was out in '63 with:
300 WIN. MAGNUM

Anything is possible of course. A bbl change, rechambering, ect.
Check it over well before touching it off.

Which ever .300 caliber it ends up being,,it's an awfully nice rifle for the price IMHO.

 

[model70hunter]

I've owned 40 or more Model 70's in pre 64, that doesn't make me an expert but a serial number with X's for the last 2 digits would help zero in a close to manufacture date.

Several have hit on key visuals, opened action for long cartridges, the old NRA type stock originally brought out on the Model 54, and the caliber stamp for the 300 Magnum was for the H&H cartridge. I seem to remember that the 300 WIN MAGNUM was only made in 1963 as pointed out.

I've had 2 300 H&H Magnums. An older Super Grade that was marked 300 Magnum and one from the 50's that had H&H in the roll stamp.

The Gun is very nice, $650 was a steal as 300 H&H seem to be in demand now. If it is a 300 WIN MAG you hit a minor jackpot.

 

[leswad]

SN is 1701xx. Thanks for all of the replies!

 

[pownal55]

That gun was made in 1950 which rules out the 300 Winchester magnum as the original chambering.

 

[feralmerril]

Here is my 300 H&H magnum. It is from the early 50`s. I think there is a big chance someone simply changed barrels on yours. If you pull the stock away from the action you will find the barrel date on the bottom of the barrel. If your serial # dates like mine early 50s or so and the barrel dates like the mid 60s, mystery solved.

 

[feralmerril]

I just noticed the stock on your rifle isnt "stepped" like mine. Without researching, I belive your rifle is very early and older than mine. If so someone screwed in a more modern barrel like I first said. Here is another 70 I own that is a first year hornet.

 

[leswad]

Here you go:

 

[jaykellogg]

Looks like it is an original barrel and looks like it is .300 H&H.

 

[feralmerril]

I suspect the 300M is just short for 300 H&H wrote under the barrel. But what does it say on top where you can read it? I cant say I ever pulled the barrel out of my stock on the 300 H&H to read it like I did on my hornet. The "50" I would take as built in 1950 and as I understand the winchester mag wasnt made then yet. Now if yours does say 300 mag on the visable top, I would say it is a rechambered 300 win mag from a original 300 H&H. Try a couple shells in it. I could see someone doing it years ago thinking they wanted the newest and most powerful plus they probley thought the 300 H&H ammo might get hard to find and the new 300 win mag would always stay more available.

 

[427mach1]

I believe it would be difficult to rechamber the original barrel from 300 H&H to 300 Win Mag without a lot of work. The 300 H& H is much longer and its shoulder taper extends to 2.479 inches from the base. The 300 Win Mag shoulder taper is only 2.356 inches from the base. You would have to add material to shorten the taper of the 300 H&H to make it into 300 Win Mag. My money says it is still a 300 H&H.

To the OP: Hurry up and let us know which it is! Perspiring minds want to know!

 

[leswad]

I suspect the 300M is just short for 300 H&H wrote under the barrel. But what does it say on top where you can read it? I cant say I ever pulled the barrel out of my stock on the 300 H&H to read it like I did on my hornet. The "50" I would take as built in 1950 and as I understand the winchester mag wasnt made then yet. Now if yours does say 300 mag on the visable top, I would say it is a rechambered 300 win mag from a original 300 H&H. Try a couple shells in it. I could see someone doing it years ago thinking they wanted the newest and most powerful plus they probley thought the 300 H&H ammo might get hard to find and the new 300 win mag would always stay more available.

It states .300 MAGNUM.... I will go get some ammo.

 

[feralmerril]

Anybody here know if a 300 win mag can get into a 300 H&H? I doubt it without researching it. Leswad I would first try a 300 H&H in it first! Remember, model 70 hunter said he had a 300 H&H that was stamped 300 mag! Maybe since the 300 win mag wasnt invented yet its possible winchester just used short slang for the 300 H&H?

 

[jaykellogg]

It is not a .300 Winchester Magnum! Do not put that ammo in it. .300 Win is shorter and the same diameter. Firing that will be exciting to say the least! .300 Win will go in and headspace off of the belt. .300 Win was developed 13 years after this gun was built. The smart thing would be to have a gunsmith check it with a headspace gauge. If there isn't a good gunsmith nearby and you have a friendly ammo dealer you could try some .300 H&H in the chamber. If it fits, then trying Win mag would be foolish.

Repeat, the .300 H&H Mag is longer than the .300 Win Mag. .300 Win mag will go in, but the chamber is much longer and attempting to fire it would probably be a disaster.

 

[2152hq]

The bbl date '50' on the bottom of the bbl indicates when the bbl itself was made.
It does not indicated when the rifle was necessarily assembled.

Quite often the bbl date and the ser#/yr of mfg date coincide.
But sometimes they do not.
Old stock bbls from years prior can and do show up on later factory assembled guns.

A (19)50 '300 Magnum' roll marked bbl is a 300 H&H Magnum chambered bbl from the factory.

Right in 1950 they made the roll dies change to the '300 H&H Magnum' bbl marking from '300 Magnum'... (my earlier post).
But the '50' dated bbl w/the earlier style marking could have sat for several years before being assembled onto an action and sold. Not uncommon at all.

The 300 Winchester Magnum didn't exist till 1963.
The only bbl roll die marking used for it was '300 Win. Magnum'.


Yes,, 300 Win Magnum will chamber in a 300 H&H Magnum,,,but as pointed out, it's not a good thing to do.
They both have the same head size and belt. So the shorted Win Mag headspaces OK.
The effect is like firing a 300Savage in a 30-06. Yes it goes off, but,,,

There's no rechambering a 300 H&H Mag to a 300 Win mag successfully w/o setting the bbl back, rethreading, breech face cut and re-chambering.
It's not a simple Ackley Improved type of situation where you enlarge the existing chamber a bit and boost the shoulder open.
In this case it's too long to begin with as 427mach1 pointed out..
The 300 Win Mag is a 'short magnum'. Same family as the 458. designed to work in the standard length action. It doesn't need the extra length cut out of the action port that the 300 H&H needed and seen on the OP rifle.

The OP rifle shows original Win proof stamp(s), the bbl stamp in the right location and still proud on the blued metal surface.
Had the bbl been set back for a rechamber to 300 Win Mag, that proof would be back much further toward the edge of the receiver ring and the rear sight 'boss' wouldn't fit the stock inlet.
It and the bbl taper would be set back in the wood inlet leaving a gap.

The 300 H&H Magnum has a long gently tapered chamber w/an equally long taper to the neck.
The cartridge was originally loaded with cordite and the design was made for it. Simply looking into the chamber can provide you with much info if you know what to look at.

If you're unsure, have a gunsmith check out the rifle. Not a bad idea anyway even if just to check headspace for peace of mind.
M70's are very tough. The receiver rings are hardened far beyound what the rest of the receiver is and headspace problems are rare in them.

Check the bottom of the bolt body for a matching serial number.
They were scrawled on by hand with a spark-0-matic marking type tool, So many are difficult to read w/o some head twisting. The marking gets worn over the years too, but it should be there if you look carefully .

 

[leswad]

Ok I just procured 300 h&h and for some reason I am thinking this is going to hurt with the metal butt plate! The same SN is on the bolt.

 

[427mach1]

A 300 Win Mag round will NOT fully chamber in a 300 H&H. It will start to chamber but will jam before you can rotate the bolt. They have the same base/belt diameter (0.532"), diameter above the belt (0.513") but the 300 H&H body tapers more than that of the 300 Win Mag. The 300 Win mag measures 0.490" at the shoulder while the 300 H&H only measures 0.450". Take a look at a reloading manual or other reference that shows the dimensions.

Leswad, I would suggest a few things. First, chamber the round very slowly and carefully. DO NOT FORCE IT! If anything binds, find out WHY before continuing. If you are not comfortable or don't feel confident in what you are doing, take it to a gunsmith. Second, get a slip-over recoil pad - you are right, the metal butt plate will probably hurt!

 

[feralmerril]

I had a rubber slip on pad on mine but recently took it off as it started discoloring the wood or was about to. The rifle is heavy and soaks up a lot of recoil. I dont think it kicks that much worse than other rifles I have in 30/06 and 308 win.