Your workplace does not allow concealed carry. Do you still carry?

[cshoff]

It's done all the time and is perfectly legal except in a few states. Most often it comes down like the famous Weyerhauser deal in Oklahoma. They use a drug/firearms dog who sniffs employee vehicles parked on company property. If the employee denies permission to search after the dog "hits" they're fired. If they okay a search and a gun is found they're fired.

Like in the Weyerhauser case, this has been tried and upheld on appeal all over the country many, many times.

Bob

Sniffing a car with a dog is entirely different than entering said car and administering a physical search. I've yet to see a case where a private employer has legal authority to search an employees privately owned vehicle. The employer certainly has the power to terminate your employment for whatever reason they deem necessary, but they CANNOT perform a physical search of your vehicle OR your person without your consent. And I challenge you to find a precedent ruling that they can.

It would be the same thing if I came to your property and you forbid me access unless I authorized you to search my vehicle. You cannot compel me to comply, but likewise, I cannot compel you to allow me access if I refuse to comply.

A search of your private property requires a search warrant issued by a judge and must be performed by someone authorized by law to enforce said warrant. The typical employer does NOT qualify.

 

[straightshooter1]

You are talking apples and oranges here.

The dog sniffs and gets a hit and they ask to search (or the boss asks to search) and either you say "yes, sir, help yourself!" or you get fired.

Look up the case bk43 posted about and see what the courts said.

Bob

 

[cshoff]

cshoff,

I'm surprised you are not familiar with this. Remember all that Constitutional stuff only applies to the government. Probable cause, etc., relates to the government.

Some of the "department" stores used to routinely search employees' lockers for drugs, stolen property, etc., even cutting the employees' locks.

Cars can be "searched" in the manner posted by bk43 unless there's some law to prevent it.Since the courts seemed to uphold these things, the NRA went to bat, in various states, to get laws prohibiting this passed or laws saying guns on employers' property were legal.

You can see both sides of this-the gun owners say The Second Amendment says...," while the property owners say, "It's my property and...."

So, you have two competing rights. We, of course, want the Second Amendment to trump, but, the Supremes haven't got a case yet.

Bob

If a property owner OWNS the property, such as a locker or a company owned vehicle, then of course he/she can search it as he or she sees fit. That said, sniffing with a drug dog does not a physical search make. Heck, even you or I could walk past a vehicle and smell something suspicious and report it to authorities, but even if said vehicle is on our property, we have no legal authority to physically search it unless it is abandoned or some other such extenuating circumstances.

If you come to my house or my business and I enter your vehicle without your consent to perform a search, you had better believe that I have unlawfully entered your vehicle. The same would apply if you were my employee and your vehicle was parked on my lot. I simply could not enter your vehicle without your consent, no matter what a dog did. Sure, I could threaten to fire you if you didn't consent, and I could even follow through with that threat if need be, but there is nothing I could do to compel you to comply.

 

[straightshooter1]

Okay, I think I see what you are saying.

I don't know of any cases where the employer forced anyone to open their car without consent. Or, went out to the parking lot and broke open cars to search while the employee was inside at his desk.

But, the point is, if they don't consent, they get fired. if they consent, and a gun is found, they get fired. Either way they lose.

Bob

 

[cshoff]

You are talking apples and oranges here.

The dog sniffs and gets a hit and they ask to search (or the boss asks to search) and either you say "yes, sir, help yourself!" or you get fired.

Look up the case bk43 posted about and see what the courts said.

Bob

My original statement to you was: "An employer does not have the authority to conduct a search of a privately owned vehicle in ANY state, period."

That is a fact. The case bk43 mentioned doesn't change that at all.

Apple and oranges is what you are compaing when trying to equate sniffing a car with a dog to a physical search performed by an employer. They are not even similar. As I have said before, and I will say again, the typical employer CANNOT compel you to allow him/her to search your privately owned vehicle or your person. They can threaten you with disciplinary action, and they can even follow through on disciplinary action if you don't comply, but they still CANNOT compel you to allow them to search your vehicle or your person. Also, as I said before, there are a few exception depending on who your employer is (hint: Toyota is NOT one of those exceptions).

 

[Dan Cash]

Well, I work on a Government Installation. So simple answer...No.

That is no show stopper.

 

[cshoff]

Okay, I think I see what you are saying.

I don't know of any cases where the employer forced anyone to open their car without consent. Or, went out to the parking lot and broke open cars to search while the employee was inside at his desk.

But, the point is, if they don't consent, they get fired. if they consent, and a gun is found, they get fired. Either way they lose.

Bob

Yes, and with that, I would agree. What it amounts to is all of us have basic rights regarding our own private property, and even if we park that private property on the property of another, we never give up that right.

Doesn't mean we are imune from some sort of consequences by said property owner, but we can not be made to give up those rights without intervention from a court.

I'm glad we better understand each other now, straightshooter!

 

[straightshooter1]

Me,too.

Our state's law in kind of a mess, now. An employee with, and only with, a CWP can bring a firearm to work, parking on company property, but must leave the firearm in the locked car. The employer can not ask about the gun, sniff the car with a dog for a gun, enter the car to get a gun and can't condition employment on the worker not having a CWP.

The rest of the statute, dealing with a customer having the gun on someone else's property being okay, was struck down by the Federal Court and is still on appeal to the 11th Circuit.

The Court found there was NO RIGHT to bear arms on SOMEONE ELSE's property.

Bob

 

[cshoff]

Me,too.

Our state's law in kind of a mess, now. An employee with, and only with, a CWP can bring a firearm to work, parking on company property, but must leave the firearm in the locked car. The employer can not ask about the gun, sniff the car with a dog for a gun, enter the car to get a gun and can't condition employment on the worker not having a CWP.

The rest of the statute, dealing with a customer having the gun on someone else's property being okay, was struck down by the Federal Court and is still on appeal to the 11th Circuit.

The Court found there was NO RIGHT to bear arms on SOMEONE ELSE's property.

Bob

I've said many times that when someone steps foot on my property, their Constitutional protections no longer exist. Since I am the property owner, I decide who can be here, what they can do while they are here, and what they can possess while they are here. I have no problem with an employer having those same rights as a private property owner. That said, I know that the the extent of my rights ends at the personal property of another, such as in the case of a privately owned vehicle.

It would be nice to have some uniformity with the laws in your state, for sure. Here in Missouri, our laws clearly state that it is NOT an unlawful use of a weapon to have a loaded and concealed firearm in a vehicle, even on a posted premises, so long as such weapon is not removed from the vehicle or brandished. However, we don't have a law that prohibits an employer from firing an employee who he/she suspects may have a concealed firearm in the employee owned car on the employer owned parking lot. That was one of our legislative priorities this year that we were unable to get straightened out.

 

[jframe]

All this talk about legalities and courts and such just made me think of the most logical answer for me: I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. I realize jobs are tough these days, but pushing up daisies due to some kook who decides for whatever reason to shoot up my workplace just ain't worth the chance. Naysayers say you wouldn't have a chance anyway, but with a gun I've got at least 50%. Without it, I have none. Therefore, I understand written policy, but they need to be able to guarantee my safety 100% of the time that I am on their premises. In other words, don't ask, don't tell.

 

[MR .44 Spl]

That is no show stopper.

It is here. Everyday when I drive in the gate, guard asks "Weapons, cameras, or alcohol?" They can and will search cars at random when they come in. I'm pretty sure you don't want to get caught with any of the above, but I wouldn't say that it never happens.

Other than breaking the rules and taking your chances, how is this not a show stopper.

 

[Capt Steve]

"I heard a story while doing some work at a Toyota plant in southern Indiana "

This doesn't make it gospel. "How did Toyota get away with it?" you ask, well maybe they did and maybe they didn't. But if they posted their property no firearms with the appropriate language, such as ...."the right to pass being subject to search" or some other sort of legalese then they can search as it is your choice whether or not you enter their property.

 

[2Loud4You]

My boss didn't ask, I don't tell. He knows I have a concealed carry permit and own a lot of guns but we leave it at that. Technically it's not on me during work, it's in my locker.

 

[Grayfox]

It boils down to a personal decission.
Is it worth getting fired if caught?
Do you feel the need to carry at work?
If so, why work there?

Only you can make the choice.

 

[J274895]

Guys, getting back to my original question, it's pretty much a moot point.

Cooincidentally, today I received in the mail, my copy of Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws by Kevin Starrett of the Oregon Firearms Federation. Per Oregon law, "Private property is private property, and if the owner of that property says no guns are allowed, then they are not."

My employer owns the building in which I work, so they're well within their rights to state that guns are not allowed. I'm cool with that. I'm not risking my job just to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights.

 

[Loofa]

"I heard a story while doing some work at a Toyota plant in southern Indiana "

This doesn't make it gospel. "How did Toyota get away with it?" you ask, well maybe they did and maybe they didn't. But if they posted their property no firearms with the appropriate language, such as ...."the right to pass being subject to search" or some other sort of legalese then they can search as it is your choice whether or not you enter their property.

Precisely. I do not know the final outcome, and the conversation was made in passing while doing a quality sort with one of the members of the sorting company we hired. I don't even know how the conversation started, but instead of starting some sort of gun rights argument while trying to get a lot of work done in a short time... I didn't push the issue.

I don't know what kind of contracts these workers signed when starting their employment, who knows what kind of crap they consented to upon hiring. I do know, for a fact, that the facility I was at made it a point to drive home the NO FIREARMS... anywhere policy. It didn't mean leave it in your locker, or in your car, they didn't want them on the property. So, to answer the OP's question - if your gonna carry concealed make sure its concealed, and as few people know about it as possible. In these times of a tough job market, someone could move up the chain by ratting you out and creating a new vacant position.

 

[cshoff]

"I heard a story while doing some work at a Toyota plant in southern Indiana "

This doesn't make it gospel. "How did Toyota get away with it?" you ask, well maybe they did and maybe they didn't. But if they posted their property no firearms with the appropriate language, such as ...."the right to pass being subject to search" or some other sort of legalese then they can search as it is your choice whether or not you enter their property.

That is nonsense. Toyota can't exercise authorities and powers it never had simply because they posted some sign at their entrance. That would be like thinking the "No Tresspassing, Violators Will Be Shot" signs possess some kind of validity. The posting of a sign on your property does not in any way entitle you to exercise authorities you never had in the first place. A signed agreement, on the other hand, would probably be upheld in court.

 

[USAF385]

Well since my current boss is my father... there is no rule against carrying. However, since my current job is HVAC installation / repair.. no I don't carry while working. First of all it would be difficult for the line of work.. even my 642 in the most comfortable location would cause issues. More importantly.. I work in people's homes. Would you want your contractor coming into your house with a loaded handgun?

I took advice from some posters recently though. I bought a lock box and bolted it to the floor of my truck. I keep my gun in there while I'm working. I don't like the thought of leaving the gun anywhere other than on my side, but I'm comfortable with this since there's no way it's getting out of the box. Also, I'm never very far from the truck.

 

[WC145]

I carry everywhere, all the time, including work. I am a respiratory therapist and a LEO. The hospital where I work has a no weapons policy for employees, although, interestingly, they don't post "no gun" signs for the public. However, because I am also an LEO, which they are aware of, we have sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" agreement. It is a very small facility in the country with no security, other than the maintenance guys, so I am often asked to respond to unruly patients and family members, to provide security for hospital functions, and to assist other LEO's that bring prisoners into the facility for treatment. I guess they see bending that rule in my case as a benefit to them.

Of course, even if they told me not to I'd do it anyway. That's what P3AT's are for!

 

[HAWKEYE10]

How in the world did Toyota get away with that? They have no legal authority to search a vehicle that is privately owned by an employee nor to search the body of an employee. They would have had to fire him based off of hearsay which certainly could have led to a wrongful termination suit. Unless the guy admitted to carrying or somehow brandished or failed to keep it concealed, I don't really think there is much they could have done about it.

They do have a right to search your car.
It is a Federal Trade Zone and they do have that right. I worked at such a place and they
had the same rules. [NO GUNS ON THE PROPERTY] I thought the biggest danger for me
was something happening going to and from work so I left the gun in the car.
[AND KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT] Don