CHRONOGRAPHING 38 SPECIAL SELF DEFENSE AMMO

Hi Guys.....

I have just conducted some chronograph testing of my own using a S & W model 60 (2" barrel) and a bunch of different Factory Loads that are typically used for self defense purposes. The equipment I used was the Master Chrony that I have always found to be reliable, and the weather on the test date was about 55 degrees and sunny. I have to say that after seeing the results with my own eyes, I was BLOWN AWAY! The results below were an average of 10 shots out of a 2" S & W Chief Special.

ALL FACTORY AMMO:

Winchester 158 Gr. SWCHP +P (FBI load) ............751 fps
Remington 158 Gr. SWCHP +P (FBI load)...............746 fps
Winchester 158 Gr. SWC Standard Non +P Load .....692 fps
Federal 158 Gr. LRN Standard Non +P Load............701 fps
Speer Gold Dot 135 Gr. JHP +P ("short bbl. load")...880 fps
Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. +P SWCHP-Gas Check...........1,025fps
Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. Std. Non +P 158 Gr. SWCHP.....835fps

What really surprised me is how dismal the FBI loadings were! I have serious doubts that they would even expand at the above velocities, and as far as the standard pressure loads go (from Federal & Winchester), I would classify them as plinking loads only. The Buffalo Bore ammo actually performed better than the company advertises. Their +P loading in my opinion is nothing sort of FANTASTIC!!! Over 1,000 feet per second from a 2" gun. Their Non +P loading actually performed better than the Winchester and Remington +P ammo. Not only were their velocities incredible, but the recoil was not bad at all. In my M60 Chief's Special (all steel with wooden grips & a Tyler "T" grip) which weighs in at 20 ounces, it was very controllable, and point of impact was the same as point of aim. The Speer Gold Dot ammo was quite good as well. Their loading averaged 880 fps which again form a 2" gun is very respectable.

What really gets me is that the big 3 ammo companies that have been in the business for many many years, have resources up the wazoo, lots of money for R & D, and they are producing self defense ammunition with sub standard performance. For the past 20 years I have carried the so-called FBI load in my Chief, but no more. I will now be carrying Buffalo Bore's +P 158 Gr. bullet, and I will probably use either the Gold Dot 135 Gr.or the Buffalo Bore standard 158Gr. in my Model 37 "Airweight".

Obviously both Buffalo Bore & Speer have done their homework as far as self defense ammo is concerned, and Win. Fed. & Rem. have either gotten very lazy, or caved into the lawyers. Just thought some of you would be interested.

Regards,
Chief38

very interesting....
I have been following the Buffalo Bore choices for a few weeks now, might be time to buy a coupla boxes and see how they shoot

From my testing in my Chief's Special, the Remington FBI load
will expand. It has always expanded in the tests I have done.
From what I have seen Win and Fed will not in that load.
Just my observations.

I would not consider 750 fps sub standard though. I have chronographed many 158 gr standard loads at 600-625 fps -no joke in my Chief.

The original FBI loads have over the years turned many a bad guy into a former bad guy.
I have seen the Remington actually expend from a 2" gun, worked fine then, likely works just fine now.

As for R&D, these loads were fully developed back in the day and R&D has been spent on other ammo in their various product lines, no surprise there.

How does BB get a 158 gn bullet to go over a 1000 fps out of a 2" barrel without exceeding pressure limits?

Beemer-mark said:

How does BB get a 158 gn bullet to go over a 1000 fps out of a 2" barrel without exceeding pressure limits?

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I wondered how the Hornady Leverevolution Ammo achieved the stated velocity as well. Something about a special blend of propellent???

Chief38 had an excellent post!!!!

One way to get much higher velocity over standard current production ammunition is to load to the pressure limit of the cartridge. My opinion is that .38 Spl is factory loaded to a level that even the poorest manufactured or older pre-heat treated arms shouldn't fail due to over pressure. I also believe that what is marketed as +P possibly even +P+ is really only loaded closer to the SAMMI pressure specs.

Very related but off topic, .35 Remington is loaded to SAMMI specs or a little lower in deference to the Remington Model 8. This is the gun the round was designed for and this makes sense. If you own a Marlin lever action you can safely load to a higher pressure, within limits of the action and get some very impressive performance. I'm still slowly working up with my .35. Factory loads run in the mid 1800's from my gun and my reloads right now are north of 2100, safely.

So a reloader or specialty ammunition company can get much better performance simply loading near the top end of standard pressure specifications.

I am in no way saying that a well placed shot from any 38 spl. will not kill a person ( heck, .22's killed many people ), but the purpose of shooting someone (presumably) is to immediately stop them from doing harm. The more violent and shocking power the impact has, the faster that person will become incapacitated.

I also have begun looking into older (circa late 60's & early 70's) 38 special ammunition, and have found loadings by both Winchester & Remington that are very close to what Buffalo Bore has achieved. These were marked "police loads" ( not +p's at the time ) but they were never offered to the public at large for some reason unknown to me.

Both Buffalo Bore & Speer have achieved their spectacular results WITHIN sammi specifications, which means that a revolver in good condition will have no problems handling the ammo since it was designed for it. That given, why not take advantage of the full power loadings, instead of relying on 80 plus year old technology??

Up until now, I always had the mind set of "hey, this is what everybody says is the best load for my 2" gun", so I used it, and quite honestly, up until recent times that may have been true. In my personal opinion, we now have better choices, and after actually chronographing them myself and seeing the results, I can no longer stick with the old stuff. I guess like everything else in life, it's not for everybody.

Chief38

I like the accuracy of the Federal 158 gr. LSWCHP+P in my 65-5, 3"bbl. I still haven't found a load I like in my J-frames, except 148 gr. WCs in general. Been thinking of trying BB 158s and Speer SB loads. I will, now!

I agree with Bagolden. I think that the current offerings from Winchester, Remington & Federal are so "watered down" that they can be fired from firearms manufactured a hundred years ago. Their +P loadings are not that much hotter and still below the max. sammi specs. I also think he is correct stating that Buffalo Bore has not exceeded the specified sammi pressures, but loaded up to them. Still perfectly safe in a modern gun in good condition. It's kind of like only filling your gas tank 3/4 full with the fear that some might spill out if you fill it to the top.

chief38

The companies found out a long time ago that the wording in advertisements is what sell things. Just call it "new and improved", "major breakthrough", "FBI", "+P", or "super doesit" and the public never questions, they just buy. Do as Chief38, if you want to know how a cartridge works in your gun you have to test it in your gun. Larry

They're butal on both ends........

but now you can see why I run .357s in my snubs. I use Speer SB .357 in my 360 PD and full house Remington 125 gr. SJHPs in my Taurus 605 and Ruger SP-101.

Other people's milage may vary, of course. If you can handle the extra power, by all means do so.

chief38 said:

I also have begun looking into older (circa late 60's & early 70's) 38 special ammunition, and have found loadings by both Winchester & Remington that are very close to what Buffalo Bore has achieved. These were marked "police loads" ( not +p's at the time ) but they were never offered to the public at large for some reason unknown to me.

Chief38

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Can you tell us what they are? The Treasury loads and Super Vel have been frequently discussed on this forum and others, but I don't recall hearing anything about what you described. The Super Vel (original version) was hot, Treasury load was not, but Super Vels were available to the general public. Thanks!

Here are a few loads off the top of my head. The first was the predecessor to the .357 which was called the 38-44 which was nothing more than a VERY HOT 38 special. They used 158 grain bullets that had velocities of 1175 fps. The second one was a round called the "38 Hi Speed" that was supposedly even hotter than any of the +P loadings from the Big 3 ammo makers. There was also a load made for the State Troopers back in the late 60's, but I can not find the spec's. to quote this minute, but I shall look for it.

Chief38

chief38 said:

Here are a few loads off the top of my head. The first was the predecessor to the .357 which was called the 38-44 which was nothing more than a VERY HOT 38 special. They used 158 grain bullets that had velocities of 1175 fps. The second one was a round called the "38 Hi Speed" that was supposedly even hotter than any of the +P loadings from the Big 3 ammo makers. There was also a load made for the State Troopers back in the late 60's, but I can not find the spec's. to quote this minute, but I shall look for it.

Chief38

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The 38-44 load significantly predates the 1960's and 70's, going all the way back to the 30's. That ammo was available to the public. The state trooper load you mentioned is probably the one shown below, note that it is a 110 grain bullet. The Hi Speed designation is what the industry used before the +P designation, and it's hard to determine what the actual numbers were. I have not been able to locate any to test. Other posters have said it mirrored the 38-44, or about 1150 fps out of 6" barrels. It also was available to the public. As some others have said on this forum, it is easier to find quality .38 Special loads today with expanding and jacketed bullets (Corbon, Hornady, Gold Dot, Buffalo Bore, etc.) than it was many years ago.

M&P 360 with "Magnums"

My M&P 360 is carried with 125 grain Gold Dots{.357 Magnum} and actually chrono'd 1200FPS!!!!! A handful, but manageable. The 140 grain Lever-Evolution clocked 1150FPS!!!!! Oh Baby!!!! This isn't fun,but it is do-able. The Heavy loads shoot to point of aim for me at 15YDS. If I were to carry .38 Specials in it, I would stick with the 95gr.+P because of their speed. S-prefix

Stiab,

One of the loadings I was referring to came in a YELLOW Winchester box, was 158 gr. LRN ammo and was specifically marked for police use. I do believe that judging from the box this ammo is from the 60's - 70's. There were chronograph tests done on this ammo (although not by me) and the posted results were quite a bit hotter than the +P offerings now days.

My Father was a Federal LEO and I took special note of the ammo made specifically for his agency. Most of the loadings were 110 gr. & 125 gr. but there were also some heavier loadings made. In fact, some of the boxes that they came in were just plain white boxes, and they were clearly marked for LE use only (not for sale to the public). The boxes had a long winded statement that this ammo was loaded to extremely high velocities and pressures and was to be used with caution.

Chief38

chief38 said:

My Father was a Federal LEO

Chief38

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Me too. You are probably referring to some of the ammo seen below, which I was issued in the early 1970's. Despite the warnings, it was not very hot. I personally chronographed it out of a 4" Model 15 at only 1077 fps (110 grain bullet). The Super Vel ammo of the day, available to the public, with the 110 grain bullet, tested 1221 fps from the same revolver on the same day. The energy produced by the Super Vel is 29% greater than from the 'law enforcement only' load.

FWIW, I got results similar to stiab's, testing Federal +P+ 110s against Super Vel's. Even though the Super Vel was already pretty old, it ran about 1180fps from a 4" 10, whereas the +P+ was about 1080fps from a 520.

I have no idea what the various pressures were.

FWIW, the good news is the Treasury Load will break 1200 fps- the bad news it's from an 8" Python.

Good shooting.