CHRONOGRAPHING 38 SPECIAL SELF DEFENSE AMMO

[John P.]

Chief38:

Great Information! I carried the Winchester 158 gr. SWCHP +P load for years in a model 60. When I switched to a 637 I loaded it with the Speer SB 135 Load. I was disappointed to see the chronograph results of the Winchester loading; I don't have any around anymore, but I thought they were advertised at over 850FPS in a 4 inch barrel. Have you thought about taking your testing a step further with these loads by doing penetration and expansion testing in ballistic gelatin? The FBI load v. the Speer 135 load would be interesting. Thanks for the good info...

Best Regards

 

[jason223]

few more loads that I have chronoed over the years. ave of 10 shots 2 inch barrels s&w 637 and charter arms off duty 38 specials....357 is s&w 66 with 6 inch barrel

2 inch barrel
fed 129 hydra shock +P 801 fps
rem 125 golden saber +P 912 fps
corbon 158 LHP +P+ 951 fps
fed 110 JHP +P+ 994 fps
win 110 JHP +p+ 1003 fps
fed 147 hydra shock +p+ 811 fps

6 inch
corbon 110 JHP +p+ 1584 fps...older load..way to hot for 38 sp!
fed 129 hydra shock +p 919 fps
fed 110 JHP +p+ 1210 fps
win 110 JHP +p+ 1157 fps
fed 147 hydra shock +p+ 966 fps

hope this may help

Jason

 

[flop-shank]

A few things I remember....I think?

I'll bet that the gel tests are over at Brassfetcher (old website link). Tomorrow I'll have to dig in my library. IIRC, the Winchester version was what the FBI used in the '86 Miami shootout. It did well from 4" guns, but, IIRC, SA McNeil was using a 2 1/2" gun and the load beat the snot out of William Mattix's head. Someone please correct me if my memory is wrong.

 

[chief38]

John P.

I would be interested in doing a penetration test, but believe it or not the range & shooting club that I belong to will not let us shoot at ANYTHING other than paper targets. Yea, I know, what's the harm of shooting into gelatin......but I am just a member so I have to follow their rules. Ranges are very sparse in this part of the country so I can't rock-the boat!

It would be quit interesting to see the results though.

Chief38

 

[Frank V]

I think the factories have access to powders that we don't (non canistered) We sometimes don't have the same powders available to us.
Frank

 

[Austin S&W]

Thanks for the interesting post chief38. Anyone done any accuracy tests for some of those loads out of a 2 inch? I know that you have to find the right load for your pistol, just wondering if there are any loads that many folks have found generally accurate (or inaccurate) out of a 2 inch j frame.

 

[Pigirondan]

Well, it appears Buffalo Bore is where it's at.

 

[paragon1]

The Winchester 158 gr +P LSWCHP is a hardcast bullet, very little expansion. The Remington version is much softer, and expands more often than not. BB is even softer, and has a very tight gas check. It expands, and then some.

Brassfetcher has tests where the BB load starts disintegrating, but the larger pieces still penetrated past the magical 12" with the 158 gr load. BB also loads Gold Dots that are faster still out of a snub. I think I will try some soon and report.

 

[Pigirondan]

Shooting the Buffalo Bore 125 grain low velocity Gold Dots in a 638 is almost pleasant.

 

[tpd223]

The Win .38 bullet that hit Matix knocked him out even though it missed the brain, and left him combat ineffective for the rest of the fight.

BTW, both bad guys were killed with this ammo by Agent Mireles.

 

[Pigirondan]

The Win .38 bullet that hit Matix knocked him out even though it missed the brain, and left him combat ineffective for the rest of the fight.

BTW, both bad guys were killed with this ammo by Agent Mireles.

And the dish ran away with the spoon.

 

[flop-shank]

The Win .38 bullet that hit Matix knocked him out even though it missed the brain, and left him combat ineffective for the rest of the fight.

BTW, both bad guys were killed with this ammo by Agent Mireles.

Correct, although I doubt either BG was long for this world.

Just for the sake of clarity, the shot in question by SA McNeil didn't miss Mattix's brain. It just failed to penetrate the cranial vault. It did fracture it and cotuse (sic?) the lower right temporal lobe of his brain.

 

[chief38]

Well, I have thought about the suggestion of doing a penetration and expansion test on the ammo I chronographed, but I will have to wait until sometime this summer when I can get upstate to one of my buddy's country home. He has hundreds of acres and we can safely do tests there. The ranges here will not let us shoot anything but paper targets stapled onto the carriers.

In the mean time, I have stoked my Chief's Special 2" snubby with the Buffalo Bore +P 158 grainers, and I feel very confident with that package.....

Chief38

 

[oldRoger]

I am a fan of BB, sometime ago I started carrying their 19E/20 in my 640 & 60-10 (3"), It is .357 /158 gr JHP called low flash, low recoil, low report, the description is good IMO. The ranges I use will not let me set-up a chronograph much less shoot into gelatin so I take BBs word as good. The bullets look very much like gold dots. It certainly is a manageable load. Of course the "lows" are relative, as it does make a flash and bang.
I often hear the argument; "just use 38 +p instead of .357, as the results are similar" assuming BB is accurate, I think this is a better round than any 38 + P for short barrel .357s.
S&W mod. 340PD 1-7/8 inch barrel -1,015 fps (361 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66 2-1/2-inch barrel -1,097 fps (422 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 65 3-inch barrel -1,172 fps (481 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun 4-inch barrel -1,232 fps (532 ft. lbs.)
Colt Python 6-inch barrel -1,198 fps (503 ft. lbs.

 

[flop-shank]

Old Roger, thank you for your post. That Buffalo Bofe load is impressively hot when you look at the numbers. Any time I see a .38 getting over 400 fpe., it puts me on notice.

FWIW, whenever I've tested a load and compared it to the results I found online, the results have been very close. If you can find third party results that are reliable, then I doubt that there's a need to test yourself.

 

[sigp220.45]

I'll bet that the gel tests are over at Brassfetcher (old website link). Tomorrow I'll have to dig in my library. IIRC, the Winchester version was what the FBI used in the '86 Miami shootout. It did well from 4" guns, but, IIRC, SA McNeil was using a 2 1/2" gun and the load beat the snot out of William Mattix's head. Someone please correct me if my memory is wrong.

SSA McNeil (now dead, by the way - the last casualty of 4/11/86) used a personally owned 2 1/2 Model 19 (at least until he took the .223 round in the hand and blood and bone in the cylinder prevented a reload) but I'm not sure that he hit anybody.

It was SA Ed Mireles who put the head and neck shots into both guys, using a personally owned 4 inch 586 with LSWCHPs.

If you want to wade through this:

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Freedom of Information Privacy Act

there is plenty of interesting info, including the brand of ammo used by the agents (from the evidence logs of the recovered cases) and the make, model, and serial numbers of the guns involved on both sides.

 

[flop-shank]

McNeil landed devastating hits

I have Dr. Anderson's book, Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight. Dr. Anderson's analysis indicates that SA McNeil took Matix out of the fight with gunshot wound F (right temple) which fractured, but failed to penetrate the skull covering the right temporal lobe of Matix's brain. The brain was cotused and this shot would have produced unconscienceness. The bullet came to rest in the right maxillary sinus.

It is believed that SA McNeil landed gunshot wound B with his next shot. This wound entered at the base of the neck on the right side above the clavical. It the severed the subclavian vessels (blood supply to the right arm), damaged the bracial plexus, hit the first rib where it comes off the spine (fracturing it), and deflected downward into the right pleural cavity at which point it came to rest. The right lung was not punctered. At autopsy the right lung was collapsed and the right pleural cavity contained about 900 cubic centimeters of blood. Take note those of you who only carry one gun, Matix lost the use of his right arm!

It makes sense that McNeil rendered Matix combat ineffective. He never fired another shot after his first shotgun blast at Jerry Dove. Taking that shot exposed him to SA McNeils gunfire at across the car hood distance.

I think it can be safely said that agents Dove and McNeil killed the human coyotes in question, but like the guy who scores the winning touchdown, SA Mireles deserves our applause for speeding up the process.

 

[sigp220.45]

I'm not sure I'd put much stock in Doc Anderson - I'm pretty sure he's still in the child molester wing of his local pen.

William French Anderson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That said, I haven't read his book, though I have heard it is full of glaring errors. I just couldn't stomach putting money in his pocket.

He may be right about McNeil's shots - did he base his conclusions on ballistic comparisons of the recovered bullets?

 

[flop-shank]

Thanks for the though provoking reply!

I'm not sure I'd put much stock in Doc Anderson - I'm pretty sure he's still in the child molester wing of his local pen.

Thanks for the heads up, i hadn't heard about any of that! Gross!!!

That said, I haven't read his book, though I have heard it is full of glaring errors. I just couldn't stomach putting money in his pocket.

Could you please give me an example of what the glaring errors might be, sir? I'll look further into his conviction, but if that's the case (I'm sure it is, he got convicted), God bless you for not subsidizing the SOB! I'm sure that black belt in tae kwon do will be useful in prison.

He may be right about McNeil's shots - did he base his conclusions on ballistic comparisons of the recovered bullets?

I'm sure the one recovered from the right maxillary sinus is FUBAR. It fragmented considerably (could this be part of why Winchester uses a harder alloy?) I'll dig into the book and let you know about both bullets though. I don't know who else would have hit him. I don't think Risner and Orrantia were there yet and there was no one else on that flank firing right after WM fired his first and only shot. I just don't know who else could have hit Matix from those angles while still in the Monte Carlo. The only person who could have possibley hit him with the FBI load like that would be Gilbert Orrantia, but it seems more than improbable. Am I missing something?

 

[ENGINE18]

accuracy, accuracy,accuracy!