Carrying where "No Guns" signs are posted.

MY 2 cents worth

Most of the time i am out the no carry no gun signs are in a location that you wouldn't notice them, unless you were intentionally looking for them.
To me that's a store owners attempt to straddle the fence. Just like the bookstore my wife and I go to.. The sign is down in a corner of the store window hard to see. The "old" NO SMOKING sign is right at eye level post at the door handle. So figure it out guys.
I am 65 lungs are bad on oxy. 24/7 , Right hamstring tore 5 year ago can't run due to that AND the lungs, eyes are such I need laser help on the gun since can't see the sights and the intended target at the same time.
Wife and I always pick our spots in a restaurant, Agree to what we will both do IF an armed encounter is to occur, and our possible choices for our reaction..

The wife checks me out for 'printing' And I carry 2 ., A 642 with CT and a Sigma .40 with CT or one of 2 .45's-4513TSW or Shorty .45.
The reason I give all this irrelevant info to you is for this statement.
UNLESS the NO GUNS sign is posted NEXT to the NO SMOKING sign in the same BIG letters, I never "look " for the No Guns sign.

The wife says IF I am stupid enough to let my guns be seen, and caught, i shouldn't have them anyway.

This is the "BIG" end of the pool kids.

Just lately a man walked in to his daughters birthday party, with a shotgun at a Cracker Barrel 6 blocks from my home. . Hunted down his wife and 2 children Killed all 3. Cops shot him as he came out.
Thing is NO one stopped him from Killing in a public place.
I have faith in my judgement and my training. The debate of NO GUNS vs ignoring the sign is a very MOOT point to me..
The Doctor lady in Texas with the LUBY"S shooting started the CCW for all of us. Google it up and see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre
I have "carried " since 1970. it was 22 years before the wife found out. And then that was only because she was going back thru our luggage after I had packed. I didn't care to debate the issue with her at all ever. But she was in agreement.
At work for years the debate of not being able to carry a gun concealed, since we were at that time a NON CCW state always came up.
I would say " you only know that I have a gun on me if I pull it out."
So till then no law has been broken.. You don't know if I have one on me right now , DO YOU??
the answer was always "NO"..
I simply am speaking from a common sense survival approach vs the Philosophical debate approach.
" The FACTS ARE" if someone else had a weapon at the time, its a good bet less people/ children would be dead.

Ranch Hand is right in so many ways.

First off chain stores/malls make corporate policy in their corporate lawyers' offices in West Overshoe, safely locked behind a security door with access limited to only those that work in that office building.

Meanwhile several thousands of miles away, there are store managers or mall managers (my BIL was one of these) who have to deal with the public, can't hide behind a security "barrier" . . . but must post the signs mandated by corporate.

To wit: One chain theater location had the no guns sign ONLY on the inner exit door . . . no way to see it until you are leaving the theater. Another chain theater posted theirs at ground level on the outer door . . . unless you crawl up the stairs you'd never see it. I see both of these as a "protest" by the local manager (who disagrees with corporate) but in strict compliance with the corporate mandate.

I know of two Costco locations where the managers have gun permits . . . they aren't posted (never been in a posted Costcos and I've been to many in FL, CT, MA and NH) and aren't likely to ever be posted.

For the record: Any store employee can "trespass" any customer by ordering them to leave for any reason whatsoever (true in any state) and failure to do so is a crime . . . has nothing to do with firearms! MA and NH have no laws that make signage binding.

blujax01 said:

No as there are no provisions in the law for such a sign. There are specific provisions for posting a sign where a CC holder may not carry a gun.

That is if the CC holder wants to be a law-abiding citizen, of course.

Some seem to be confusing the right to bear arms with the privilege of having a concealed carry permit.

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Just to play devil's advocate, this is a state by state basis. In Iowa you can post signs until you're blue in the face about conceal carry but it's not law. It'd be similar to "NO (insert here) ALLOWED". No laws are being broken. The clerk/owner can ask you to leave at which point you must comply. If not at that point you are breaking the law.

In my case, if an unplanned stop happens that I may know has a sign (only one place I've ever been at a mall) I either don't go in, or go about whatever I had to do there and leave. It's concealed, and more than likely will stay that way. I CC to protect me and mine, not be LEO of any kind. If it's offensive for others to know I CC I appologize they don't understand, but it may be offensive that I don't like they're bratty child etc.... Still offensive, they don't know, and neither are illegal.



The debate can go on and on, I'll back out now and let whoever judge.

To me, those "No Guns Allowed" signs are kinda like saying "Don't Expose Your Genitals". Duh! I mean if I go into a store I'm gonna make sure that my gun isn't exposed.

Disobey either sign and you could get into trouble.

Jeff1000 said:

To me, those "No Guns Allowed" signs are kinda like saying "Don't Expose Your Genitals". Duh! I mean if I go into a store I'm gonna make sure that my gun isn't exposed.

Disobey either sign and you could get into trouble.

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Jeffy-
That's not the way I interpret it? "No Guns Allowed", to me, means NO GUNS ALLOWED, whether exposed or concealed?

CigarGuy said:

Jeffy-
That's not the way I interpret it? "No Guns Allowed", to me, means NO GUNS ALLOWED, whether exposed or concealed?

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I'm sure it does; I'm just looking for loopholes.

Also, it depends how you define "gun".

Jeff1000 said:

I'm sure it does; I'm just looking for loopholes.

Also, it depends how you define "gun".

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Jeff,
Yur right ya know...I've carried a handgun all of my adult life, long before all these concealed carry license laws came about.

My father told me when I was young man and talking about carrying a gun,
He said son,"There's a few things a man doesn't do in public...Count his money, pull out his **** or show off his pistol."

That advice has worked for me for over 40 sumthing years.

As far as gettin in to trouble goes...I jest plan on being alive,
to be tried by a jury of my peers!

I's rather see my grand-children lookin at me through the glass on visitin day,
than stairin at my headstone or me standing over one of their graves and knowing I failed them by not being prepared to defend em.

All My Best,
Su Amigo
Dave

Wow! This topic comes up on just about every gun forum out there.

As much as I think that "no gun" signs are silly and that business owners should be prohibited from banning guns, that's the way it is right now. We have this silly thing going on called property rights. Just like I can't bring a gun into your house if you ask me to leave it in the car, you can't take one into a store if they ask you to not do so.

From my reading, in some states, like Ohio, the crime is ignoring the sign. In my state, the crime only occurs if the proprietor asks you to leave and you don't and about all that can happen, unless you are really stupid, is that you will be given a ticket. Sadly, or joyfully, the laws vary greatly from state to state.

I'm not a cop so I can only carry in 36 states. The laws vary so widely from state to state that it isn't funny. The states with the newer carry laws seem to have the most restrictions. Here on Jasoom, where concealed carry has been codified for 80 years or more, I can carry in bars, churches, and sporting arenas. Even schools may be legal, if you have a good lawyer, but that has never reached the appellate level so no precedents have been set.

When I started carrying 30+ years ago, no one gave a hoot. I was in college and the chief of the campus police told me that carrying on campus with a state license was ok. So I carried, openly at times, and no one cared. Stores, bars, classrooms and not a word was said.

The times they have a'changed.

keith44spl said:

Jeff,
Yur right ya know...I've carried a handgun all of my adult life, long before all these concealed carry license laws came about.

My father told me when I was young man and talking about carrying a gun,
He said son,"There's a few things a man doesn't do in public...Count his money, pull out his **** or show off his pistol."

That advice has worked for me for over 40 sumthing years.

As far as gettin in to trouble goes...I jest plan on being alive,
to be tried by a jury of my peers!

I's rather see my grand-children lookin at me through the glass on visitin day,
than stairin at my headstone or me standing over one of their graves and knowing I failed them by not being prepare to defend em.

All My Best,
Su Amigo
Dave

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Hi Dave, you can go a long way and live a long life if you have common sense. Your father did you right if he you told you stuff like that. In one sentence not only did he talk about guns, but he implied the importance of modesty, humility, respect, decency, being a man, and of course good ol' common sense.

I'm honored to make your acquaintance Sir.

Thankyou for your reply.

Afectuoso Saludo

keith44spl said:

Jeff,
Yur right ya know...I've carried a handgun all of my adult life, long before all these concealed carry license laws came about.

My father told me when I was young man and talking about carrying a gun,
He said son,"There's a few things a man doesn't do in public...Count his money, pull out his **** or show off his pistol."

That advice has worked for me for over 40 sumthing years.

As far as gettin in to trouble goes...I jest plan on being alive,
to be tried by a jury of my peers!

I's rather see my grand-children lookin at me through the glass on visitin day,
than stairin at my headstone or me standing over one of their graves and knowing I failed them by not being prepare to defend em.

All My Best,
Su Amigo
Dave

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AMEN!! Been my philosophy too.

srv1 said:

I carry everywhere I go legally. Even with places with signs saying "no guns", I carry. Only places like the post office, court house and some state land is off limits. The "no firearm" signs are not laws so if for some reason they find out I have one, they can ask me to leave which I have to or it is trespassing other than that I carry.

James

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Same laws apply where I live.

Carry everywhere. If I see a "no firearms allowed" sign, I do a two point evaluation. Does this establishment have armed security personnel? A metal detector checkpoint at all entrances? If the answer is no, then I ignore the sign, as any rational person should.

blujax01 said:

I read time and again how folks think that it's not against the law to carry where the sign is posted. That it's "The store owner's rules and I can be asked to leave but it's not The Law".
It is law that one cannot carry in a posted area.

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It all depends on how the statutes in your state are written. In Missouri, it is NOT the "law that one cannot carry into a posted area".

The penalty is that one may be asked to leave by the shop owner.

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Generally speaking, you can be asked to leave for ANY reason, whether you are carrying a firearm or not. That is the "penalty" for doing business with a private business owner.

And if one refuses, the cops will be called.

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Yes, and that applies if you refuse to leave for ANY reason.

A big deal was made in Ohio when the CC law was extended to bars (or restaurants that also serve alcohol). All of us trumpeted "hey - just post a sign. We'll either leave our guns outside or go elsewhere." Now I read a lot about folks pointedly ignoring this.

And when the media shouts "CC HOLDERS IGNORE WARNING SIGNS AND THE LAW - NONE OF US ARE SAFE" it won't be pretty.

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If a person is carrying a concealed firearm, how, exactly, will a proprietor know that the person is carrying? It's unlikely that the person will be wearing a t-shirt that has, "I'm carrying a concealed handgun" written all over it. Also, do you have an example of the media shouting "CC holders ignore warning signs, etc....", or is this simply something that you assume will happen?

I have to ask - when I see one of these signs it is damned obvious that the owner of this private property does not want anyone carrying a gun on their premises. Why would anyone ignore that property owners constitutional right? If your property is posted "no trespassing" how would you feel if you looked up and someone was standing in your yard? It's the same thing.

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I pretty much agree with this. As responsible citizens, we should strive to respect private property owner's rights as much as possible (whether we carry a firearm or not). I expect folks to follow my rules when they are on my property, and subsequently, I believe it's perfectly valid for them to expect me to follow their rules on their property, especially when I have made the CHOICE to be on that property.

With that said, I DO allow for the fact that there are certain parcels of private property, or institutions located on private property, where some of us have no choice but to be on certain occasions (a hospital, for example) and where we are actually paying this private property owner a sometimes substantial amount of money for them to provide their unique services or products to us. In some instances, these establishments are located in less-than-safe neighborhoods or areas where you are at risk just walking to the building from the parking garage. In such cases, I reserve the right to place the safety of myself and my family above the wishes of the private property owner, and "ignore" the signs as long as it isn't unlawful to do so.

So in summary, while I certainly don't think we should go out of our way to not respect a property owner's wishes, I also believe that we sometimes have to make the most prudent decisions for ourselves and our families, even if they contradict with a property owner's wishes. My first responsibility is to myself and my family, a property owner's wishes are secondary to that.

cshoff said:

If a person is carrying a concealed firearm, how, exactly, will a proprietor know that the person is carrying?

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By watching for bulges in strange places.

Kanewpadle said:

You just want to argue. Well your preachin to the choir buddy. And you know exactly what I'm getting at. Don't play dumb.

My right to survive superceeds your property rights. Plain and simple. Right? Or do you just not get it?!

Thats just common sense. Before there were property rights there was the right to protect one's self. Be it spears, slings, or firearms, that right has been in existence since way before Jesus was born. No man has the right to take that away. Period. If you try, God help you.

We're done here. I've only tried to explain this 5 or 6 times and your hung up on PROPERTY! Where's your compassion?

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You have a right to survive, you just don't have a RIGHT to do it on MY property. I checked the deed and yer not on it. If you are on it and don't have my permission, you are tresspassing. If I don't want you hunting on it and you are hunting, you are tresspassing. If I don't want you carrying a gun on it and you are aware of it, you are tresspassing.

This far isn't a can I prosecute or not prosecute situation yet but they are facts. When you are on some one elses property including business and not welcome and you know you are not welcome, you are tresspassing and you know it just by definition.

With that in mind I don't think any one desearve's a second of consideration or mercy, nothing more than the bare minimum it takes to have them jailed and prosecuted. Gun or no gun, permit or no permit, same as any other low life thief or deliberate tresspasser. Jail 'em, the quicker and harder the better.

Fat Old Guy said:

By watching for bulges in strange places.

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With all of the phones, lights, knives, and other garbage people carry around on their belts now days, it would more abnormal if a person DIDN'T have an odd "bulge" here or there. If a business owner asked everyone who came in with a "strange bulge" to leave, he/she likely wouldn't have many customers left.

cshoff said:

it would more abnormal if a person DIDN'T have an odd "bulge" here or there.

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Gun bulges are different. Unless it is super deep concealment, concealed carry is only concealed to the casual observer.

Fat Old Guy said:

Gun bulges are different. Unless it is super deep concealment, concealed carry is only concealed to the casual observer.

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I submit that 99.9% of the people you will see during the average day are "casual observers". Most of them wouldn't notice if you were carrying your gun openly, much less concealed. But I digress, a PROPERLY concealed firearm, even in an IWB holster, is very difficult to discern.

Jack Ryan said:

You have a right to survive, you just don't have a RIGHT to do it on MY property. I checked the deed and yer not on it. If you are on it and don't have my permission, you are tresspassing. If I don't want you hunting on it and you are hunting, you are tresspassing. If I don't want you carrying a gun on it and you are aware of it, you are tresspassing.

This far isn't a can I prosecute or not prosecute situation yet but they are facts. When you are on some one elses property including business and not welcome and you know you are not welcome, you are tresspassing and you know it just by definition.

With that in mind I don't think any one desearve's a second of consideration or mercy, nothing more than the bare minimum it takes to have them jailed and prosecuted. Gun or no gun, permit or no permit, same as any other low life thief or deliberate tresspasser. Jail 'em, the quicker and harder the better.

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Hope you have metal detector checkpoints set up at all your doors. If not... try putting up a sign that details what you've said here. See how well your business does from there.

Hal_Jordan said:

Hope you have metal detector checkpoints set up at all your doors. If not... try putting up a sign that details what you've said here. See how well your business does from there.

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I expect that his business would not last long in Texas. For one thing, he is on the wrong side of the law if his sign does not meet the requirements of Texas Law. He has the option
to put up a legal sign or verbally ask a permit holder to leave.
It appears to me, that some people think that any old sign will do, and that is not the case in Texas. If you are a business and want your property rights to exclude someone with a permit it has to be posted with a legal 30.06 sign or else he has to verbally give notice to anyone going into that business he thinks may be carrying, in which they can leave and no arrest will take place. When a business searches someone without probable cause that raises other issues. And if he has an employee in Texas, the owner cannot restrict the employee from having a gun in the vehicle. If he owned an apartment complex, he does not have the legal right to put up a sign violating a persons right to have a gun in their apartment or home, nor from carrying to and from their vehicle. Not even a Federal Housing Authority can restrict a person from having a weapon for self defense.

So when someone says on their business property, it depends on what kind of property it is, and what state it is in. Of course if the property happens to be a liquor establishment, then he would probably have a "legal" 51% sign posted. I only know of two such legal signs in Longview, Texas,
at two retail stores. I have not been in them since I saw them, and won't drop anyone off at their stores. I could care less, if they go bankrupt, while I order products I need over the internet or at stores that don't have such signs, and I do not fail to warn people coming down here, that there is a lot of crime in their parking lot and on their premises.

Jack Ryan said:

You have a right to survive, you just don't have a RIGHT to do it on MY property. I checked the deed and yer not on it. If you are on it and don't have my permission, you are tresspassing. If I don't want you hunting on it and you are hunting, you are tresspassing. If I don't want you carrying a gun on it and you are aware of it, you are tresspassing.

This far isn't a can I prosecute or not prosecute situation yet but they are facts. When you are on some one elses property including business and not welcome and you know you are not welcome, you are tresspassing and you know it just by definition.

With that in mind I don't think any one desearve's a second of consideration or mercy, nothing more than the bare minimum it takes to have them jailed and prosecuted. Gun or no gun, permit or no permit, same as any other low life thief or deliberate tresspasser. Jail 'em, the quicker and harder the better.

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Howdy Folks,

I don't know Jack...But sounds like he's a havin trouble with errant trespassers and unruly hunters at his place of business.

Best of luck with solving those issues there Jack.


Su Amigo,
Dave