.38 Long Colt in Philippines

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SmithSwede

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Every gun nut has heard about the supposedly dismal performance of the .38 Long Colt cartridge against the Moros in the Philippines. And how .45 caliber Peacemakers had to be hauled out of storage. The US shortly thereafter settled on the .45 ACP round. Etc. Etc.

I was really surprised to read a contemporary account that blamed the poor performance of the .38 Long Colt on deteriorated gunpowder. I had never heard that before.

See Pistol & Revolver Shooting by A.L.A. Himmlewright, copyright 1904, page 47, “. . . on account of the deterioration of the powder with which some of the ammunition was loaded, it proved most unsatisfactory, especially in the Philippine war.”
 
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My uncle was in the Philippines during WW2 and was in the 200th Costal Artillery. It was well known and often reported that the ammunition had deteriorated, and many rounds of anti-aircraft shells failed to function. Grenades were also affected by the hot and moist conditions. In spite of the failure of their shells, the 200th are credited with shooting down 63 Japanese aircraft.
 
Does he provide any information how the powder in 45 Colt and 30 Krag was affected? I wonder if this led to primers and bullet being sealed in the case?

I have a friend that was in Air Police in VN. He said the 45 ammunition they used was so underpowered the bullets would occasionally not make it to the target when on the range. It was probably manufactured in W.W.II.
 
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I do not remember seeing anything written about that. I think during the Philippine campaign most .38 LC ammunition was being supplied by contractors such as UMC, Winchester, etc. and BP may have still been in use. I will have to look it up to be sure. BP does not deteriorate so long as it is kept dry. The Colt M1909 .45 Revolver was the replacement for the Colt A-N Model in .38 LC. It used the M1909 .45 cartridge, a modification of the .45 Colt. It was always loaded with smokeless powder, first Bullseye, later with RESQ, a bulk powder. Few M1909 revolvers returned from the Philippines.
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My sources say that the .38 LC changed from BP to a smokeless powder loading in fiscal year 1900. The last loading year at Frankford Arsenal was 1915, but most .38 LC ammunition made for government use was manufactured under contract. I could not find what smokeless propellant was used, nor its charge, but probably it was Bullseye. Not many other choices then. The standard MV was 750 ft/sec with a 146 grain lead bullet. Earlier, the .38 LC BP loading given was 14.6 grains.

I could not find any mentions of cartridge or propellant deterioration as a factor for changing the official cartridge caliber to .45, only a lack of stopping power with the .38 LC.
 
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No, he doesn’t give a source for the claim. Note that he wasn’t some random guy. He was a noted marksman, president of the US Revolver Association, and designer of some of the earliest .38 wadcutter bullets. And he was writing just a few years after that war.
 
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DWalt said:
I do not remember seeing anything written about that. I think during the Philippine campaign most .38 LC ammunition was being supplied by contractors such as UMC, Winchester, etc. and BP may have still been in use. I will have to look it up to be sure. BP does not deteriorate so long as it is kept dry. The Colt M1909 .45 Revolver was the replacement for the Colt A-N Model in .38 LC. It used the M1909 .45 cartridge, a modification of the .45 Colt. It was always loaded with smokeless powder, first Bullseye, later with RESQ, a bulk powder. Few M1909 revolvers returned from the Philippines.
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Like this one? Somewhere in it's life the grips, barrel and cylinder release has been replaced. But still a Colt Model 1909 U.S.Army in .45 Colt.
 

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Yes, but not using those grips. At least for the Army version, the grips were smooth. An instant tell of the M1909 revolver is the elongated extractor rod knob. The knob used for the Colt New Service is shorter. I also have not ever seen an M1909 with a ramped front sight.
 
IMO the drugs that were flowing through the bodies on the Moros was the main problem. The anemic .38 Colt round with the round nose bullet also added to the problem. The 45's made a much bigger hole and the bullet weight aided in stopping them before they were able to chop up the soldiers.
 
AJ said:
Somewhere in it's life the grips, barrel and cylinder release has been replaced.
Click to expand...

DWalt said:
Yes, but not using those grips. At least for the Army version, the grips were smooth. An instant tell of the M1909 revolver is the elongated extractor rod knob. The knob used for the Colt New Service is shorter. I also have not ever seen an M1909 with a ramped front sight.
Click to expand...

As Foghorn Leghorn stated"Pay attention". I wrote in my post the "grips, barrel and cylinder release has been replaced". Still at heart it is a M1909 Colt, just like a lot of us, it has replacement parts.😁👍
 
I believe most if not all of the volunteer units in the SA war were issued Springfield Trapdoors in .45-70 loaded with black powder.

McKinley asked for 125,000 volunteers from states and territories, apportioned to population. Wyoming fielded a light Artillery Battery, and Infantry Battalion, and the 2nd U.S. Volunteer Cavalry - Torrey's Rough Riders.

I can't find information on what handguns, if any, were issued or used by the volunteer units. Anyone know?

U.S. actions in the SA war and the ensuing Philippine War of Independence (or the Philippine Insurrection depending on your viewpoint) are not a positive reflection of our ideals. First documented use of waterboarding, or the water cure as it was called at the time.

Filipinos expected independence after the U.S. dislodged the Spanish. We didn't give it to them until after WWII.
 
.38 Colt replacement

AJ said:
Like this one? Somewhere in it's life the grips, barrel and cylinder release has been replaced. But still a Colt Model 1909 U.S.Army in .45 Colt.
Click to expand...

Here is my 1909 US Army Model. I bought this from a neighbor in 1973. According to my neighbor the gun belonged to his great uncle who had made a career of the army.

After closing the deal I stayed awhile and talked to my neighbor about his own service as a Marine in Korea from 1951-53 and about his great uncle’s army service.

According to my neighbor his great uncle carried this gun when he was stationed in the Philippines and later carried in 1916 during the Pancho Villa Expedition. At some point my neighbor was given the gun and it was stored in a trunk in the attic since the 50s.

After bringing the gun home I bought a box of Winchester .45 Colt , fired it all off and put the brass and gun away.

About 15 years ago I started reloading with my own cast bullets from a Lee mold over a charge of Trail Boss.

The DA pull is lighter and smoother than my 1917 Colts and the gun is a ball to shoot.

I really regret not getting the information from my neighbor so that I could have confirmed the back story on where this gun had been.
 

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Inland7-45 said:
Here is my 1909 US Army Model. I bought this from a neighbor in 1973. According to my neighbor the gun belonged to his great uncle who had made a career of the army.

After closing the deal I stayed awhile and talked to my neighbor about his own service as a Marine in Korea from 1951-53 and about his great uncle’s army service.

According to my neighbor his great uncle carried this gun when he was stationed in the Philippines and later carried in 1916 during the Pancho Villa Expedition. At some point my neighbor was given the gun and it was stored in a trunk in the attic since the 50s.

After bringing the gun home I bought a box of Winchester .45 Colt , fired it all off and put the brass and gun away.

About 15 years ago I started reloading with my own cast bullets from a Lee mold over a charge of Trail Boss.

The DA pull is lighter and smoother than my 1917 Colts and the gun is a ball to shoot.

I really regret not getting the information from my neighbor so that I could have confirmed the back story on where this gun had been.
Click to expand...

Will PM you.

Here are the butt markings on my revolver.
 

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ArchAngelCD said:
IMO the drugs that were flowing through the bodies on the Moros was the main problem. The anemic .38 Colt round with the round nose bullet also added to the problem. The 45's made a much bigger hole and the bullet weight aided in stopping them before they were able to chop up the soldiers.
Click to expand...

According to a contemporary military witness/researcher source report I came across years ago, the .45 caliber rounds did not do much better than the old .38 loadings against the testicle wrapped and drugged up Moros.
What DID work was the 30/40 Krag and 12 gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot.
 
smoothshooter said:
According to a contemporary military witness/researcher source report I came across years ago, the .45 caliber rounds did not do much better than the old .38 loadings against the testicle wrapped and drugged up Moros.
What DID work was the 30/40 Krag and 12 gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot.
Click to expand...

I have read this as well............ It also kind of goes along with the actual results of the Thompson-LaGarde tests which were not released for many years (as compared to the widely circulated claims about them that were put out for years). The actual results failed to prove any notable "stopping power" from larger caliber handgun rounds. The test animals absorbed numerous hits from many different sizes of handgun rounds, the only "one shot drop" recorded actually went to the 30 Luger round. And that was attributed to it hitting a vital spot.

The testers simply decided that larger had to be better, if only because a larger round was likely to do more damage and increase blood loss. A handgun is a rather weak reed compared to a rifle or shotgun, bullet placement is more critical. Anyone who expects a fight know this and logically chooses a more effective weapon............ The problem from a self defense perspective is we have no way of knowing if there will be a fight so we have to make do with what we have. And practice, practice, practice!
 
desi2358 said:
I have read this as well............ It also kind of goes along with the actual results of the Thompson-LaGarde tests which were not released for many years (as compared to the widely circulated claims about them that were put out for years). The actual results failed to prove any notable "stopping power" from larger caliber handgun rounds. The test animals absorbed numerous hits from many different sizes of handgun rounds, the only "one shot drop" recorded actually went to the 30 Luger round. And that was attributed to it hitting a vital spot.

The testers simply decided that larger had to be better, if only because a larger round was likely to do more damage and increase blood loss. A handgun is a rather weak reed compared to a rifle or shotgun, bullet placement is more critical. Anyone who expects a fight know this and logically chooses a more effective weapon............ The problem from a self defense perspective is we have no way of knowing if there will be a fight so we have to make do with what we have. And practice, practice, practice!
Click to expand...
In one of the Gun Digest editions from, I think, the 1970s, there was a feature article which discussed the Thompson-LaGarde tests, including the actual test report. It was extremely amateurishly designed and performed. The test plan was sort of like "Let's have some fun by shooting a random bunch of cows in different places with different guns and see what happens. If they don't fall over dead after the first shot, we'll keep shooting them until they do. Then we'll go down the street and have a few beers to celebrate." The tests were not the least bit scientific, and proved nothing. Basically a worthless exercise in animal cruelty.
 
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