Is the 9mm really that poor?

Actually my ex has the Toyota and she became my ex because she recently got pregnant from another man.:(

I think the brakes work:confused:

And SHE got the car??? Shoot fire and save the matches, I would have been doing back flips if any of my ex wives would have gotten pregnant by other men. Each of them backed up to my house with a truck and loaded up my stuff. One had the guts to take my gun collection. I got most of the guns back and the money she got out of the others.
 
And SHE got the car??? Shoot fire and save the matches, I would have been doing back flips if any of my ex wives would have gotten pregnant by other men. Each of them backed up to my house with a truck and loaded up my stuff. One had the guts to take my gun collection. I got most of the guns back and the money she got out of the others.

Nobody backed up to my house. I moved her out. The car was hers. I got my truck and van. She didn't want anything of mine and I didn't want anything of hers. We still kinda get along but I think if she would've wanted one of my guns I wouldn't have given her the whole gun, well maybe the Jennings.
 
Soooo...

It's pretty well established that the 1400-fps 125-grain SJHP in .357 Magnum was a freakin' lightning bolt in the hands of LEOs. Far as I know, very few informed people can be found who will dispute that.

And 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124-gr +P chronographs at a hair under 1300-fps from my GLOCK barrel. How can a mere 100-fps difference from two bullets with almost identical diameters and weight make a significant difference?

I am issued a G22 but am authorized to carry a 9mm on duty, and I feel equally capable and protected with either of them. My issued .40 is down for repair issues so my 9mm is in the Safariland 6365 and all is good as far as I am concerned.

Shot placement matters. Peripheral hits are a roll of the dice no matter the cartridge.

I love these threads. I really do.
 
Soooo...

It's pretty well established that the 1400-fps 125-grain SJHP in .357 Magnum was a freakin' lightning bolt in the hands of LEOs. Far as I know, very few informed people can be found who will dispute that.

And 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124-gr +P chronographs at a hair under 1300-fps from my GLOCK barrel. How can a mere 100-fps difference from two bullets with almost identical diameters and weight make a significant difference?

I am issued a G22 but am authorized to carry a 9mm on duty, and I feel equally capable and protected with either of them. My issued .40 is down for repair issues so my 9mm is in the Safariland 6365 and all is good as far as I am concerned.

Shot placement matters. Peripheral hits are a roll of the dice no matter the cartridge.

I love these threads. I really do.

I do not think the 9mm and .357 mag are even close in in either diameter or weight. I have a few hundred rounds of each and often have the ammo side by side. Not even close.

In the attached photos, I used Black Talon (yes, the original Black Talon) for comparison.
 

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My take on the whole caliber wars issue is simple.
Shot Placement means more than anything else in my eyes.
I carry what I feel most comfortable with, and by comfortable with I mean what I can shoot accurately, including follow-up shots.
My carry options vary from a Model 36(pre +P), a Model 65, a 686+, a Model 29 and a Kimber Pro Crimson Carry II.
The Model 29 is a little on the bulky side, to be concealed easily, and doesn't get carried very often.
The Model 36 is a family heirloom or sorts, and gets carried on special occasions and when I need deep concealment.
The Kimber is a semi-auto and the one I am least accurate with(acceptable but not great).
The Model 65 and the 686+ are the two I shoot best, and the two I carry most often.
I set high standards for myself and I won't carry anything I don't have confidence in. Part of that confidence is 3 inch or smaller groups at 21 feet, regularly. If I can shoot that well or better, I'm pretty sure the .357 Magnum round will do it's job, if I do mine.
 
My take on the whole caliber wars issue is simple.
Shot Placement means more than anything else in my eyes.
I carry what I feel most comfortable with, and by comfortable with I mean what I can shoot accurately, including follow-up shots.
My carry options vary from a Model 36(pre +P), a Model 65, a 686+, a Model 29 and a Kimber Pro Crimson Carry II.
The Model 29 is a little on the bulky side, to be concealed easily, and doesn't get carried very often.
The Model 36 is a family heirloom or sorts, and gets carried on special occasions and when I need deep concealment.
The Kimber is a semi-auto and the one I am least accurate with(acceptable but not great).
The Model 65 and the 686+ are the two I shoot best, and the two I carry most often.
I set high standards for myself and I won't carry anything I don't have confidence in. Part of that confidence is 3 inch or smaller groups at 21 feet, regularly. If I can shoot that well or better, I'm pretty sure the .357 Magnum round will do it's job, if I do mine.

Miss Fire, you are 100% correct and I admire your choice of arms.

I would like to add that shot placement is only part of the total package. If the caliber is not enough to get the attention, even in a well placed shot, the perp is going to keep moving. If shot placement alone is critical, then use a nice .22 semi and put 5-6 rounds in a given area.

Yes, many have been killed by a .22 but a lot more have continued their evil ways after being hit. If a person does not fall when hit, it means he was not impressed with your choice of weapons. As previously discussed often, most LE agencies and military units have gone to larger calibers.

The 9mm is a fine gun, shoots well, little recoil and other desired traits. It is also cheaper to shoot. Justify owning and carrying one any way you want but it is still inferior to larger calibers such as the .40, .45, .357mag, .38 and the list goes on.

One of the cases I worked by about 1990 was where a man well over 6 feet and about 275pounds was shot as he attacked a man of smaller size. He was shot 3 times in the chest with a 9mm and lived long enough to still choke the man to death before passing out. He was tried and found guilty of 2nd degree homicide. Had he been hit in the same area with a larger caliber, he likely would not have been able to reach his intended victim according to the coroner at the trial.

Please note that the areas still using the 9mm in law enforcement are anti gun areas.
 
Last summer the police shot a local man at his home. He was hit 5 out of 9 shots fired with 40 S&W hollow points. Two hit him in the upper right torso the other three hit him in the upper arm. He ended up loosing most of his right arm, and 1 of the bullets that hit him in torso went through his lung. Was talking to the man a month or so ago, and he said that one of the bullets that hit him had gone through a double pain house window, through a vase on a table, through him, a picture, through two (2) walls, and through the fender of his Suburban.
 
Last summer the police shot a local man at his home. He was hit 5 out of 9 shots fired with 40 S&W hollow points. Two hit him in the upper right torso the other three hit him in the upper arm. He ended up loosing most of his right arm, and 1 of the bullets that hit him in torso went through his lung. Was talking to the man a month or so ago, and he said that one of the bullets that hit him had gone through a double pain house window, through a vase on a table, through him, a picture, through two (2) walls, and through the fender of his Suburban.

It seems the police need to improve their accuracy. I bet he fell instantly even with the misplaced bullets. In over 38 yrs of crime scene reconstruction, I personally have never seen such penetration by a handgun bullet but I have heard a lot of embelishment by offenders. I question why the window would be penetrated first, maybe last but unless they are shooting into the window from outside and that is unlikely.

In this case, I would question how he knows it was the same bullet doing all the damage. Breaking it down, most BB guns will penetrate a double pane window. A pellet gun can penetrate such a window and a vase. A .22 caliber will do the same and into a human body. Past that, there has been so much momentum lost that little will begin penetrating walls. Even using 1/4inch wallboard, that would be a half inch of wallboard, not counting the other items. With penetration comes parasite drag and resulting co-efficient friction. A rifle bullet may do it but handguns would if they are hot loads.

We spend hours studying what happens at a shooting and why. Often the area is sealed for weeks in the event we need to re-examine something. It is all needed so fault can be determined and wrongful actions decided. The path of each bullet is traced with some expensive equipment. In the event of shell casings on the floor, ground or etc, their position also tells us pretty much where the firearm was when fired, the way it was being held and the location of the shooter. My degrees are in engineering and law as well as in business. All my education, training, experience, equipment and court testimony is examined each time I testify unless there is stipulation approving my credentials. Many people do not understand all that goes on in the background after a LEO or criminal shooting.
 
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Doesn't NYPD still have all 9mm handguns?

IIRC Sig P226, Glock 19, and S&W 5946. S&W special order DAO 3914 for off duty.

Kahr 9mm was authorized for off duty at one time. I'm not sure it still is.

Interesting tid bit for those who may be interested. The last three GSW homicides I worked at my old agency, involved 9mm.

One was a one shot stop........with WWB BALL!! The other two each involved two torso hits. In both of the latter cases ball ammo was also used, and in both latter cases the rounds were recovered from the decedants bodies.

Just for the record, at my old agency I had a would be robber shot in the neck with a single round of Winchester Ranger 40. Store owner shot him at a range of four feet. The 40 round went through and through homeys neck and the crime scene techs picked it up off the floor (slightly expanded) about two feet from where EMS was working on him. He survived BTW and is now a guest of the state. Point is, no round is fool proof and Murphy rules.

Nine is fine and shot placement trumps everything. But use a Remington 870 if possible anyway. ;)

Paraphrasing Erich's famous signature, "Everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin". Regards 18DAI.
 
Very few people have "vast" experience shooting an killing other people and I am no different. I am no different but in my limited experience, the only cartridges that exceed the 9mm Parabellum in terminal inefficiency are the .32 ACP and .25 ACP. While any cartridge/caliber has the potential to kill, larger and/or more powerful roounds do it with more reliability.
 
My experience in killing is limited to deer, pheasant, and a couple of cats. Although admittedly I often carry a .380, I am more comfortable carrying a caliber that I would trust to be an effective stopper on a large, adrenaline-pumped animal of any species.

Would I use a 9mm on a large, rabid woodchuck? Probably and effectively after a couple of shots, but I would feel better with a .45.
 
I do not think the 9mm and .357 mag are even close in in either diameter or weight. I have a few hundred rounds of each and often have the ammo side by side. Not even close.

In the attached photos, I used Black Talon (yes, the original Black Talon) for comparison.

Sir, no offense, but if you're basing your opinions on the size of the respective loaded cartridges, you've a bit of homework to do.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
 
I use the 9mm and I am more likely to be attacked than the rest of you since I use sarcasm heavily in my day to day dialogues. So that should settle that!
I ought to send you a selection of the more interesting death threats I've gotten from the neo-Nazi National Alliance and other assorted simpletons. Apparently I'm more "sarcastic" than you.

That having been said, I carry a variety of firearms, in a variety of calibers, including 9x19mm, .38 Special (in my .357s too), .40 S&W and .45acp.

I don't ever expect somebody to THANK me because I put a 147gr. Winchester White Box JHP into them center of mass, at least if they're not on fire or being chased by a nude Rosie O'Donnell.
 
One should exercise great caution in citing big city police departments as examples worthy of emulation when it comes to firearms. Their choice of firearms and ammunition is VERY often motivated by various combinations of politics, political correctness and or graft.

In addition, standards of marksmanship (and legal) training can be VERY low in these organizations.

These factors combine to produce some very adverse results at times.

NYPD was one of the last to switch from 9x19mm FMJs. Naturally they had a VERY serious problem with through and throughs which led to multiple accidental shootings of citizens and other cops and the inevitable punishing lawsuits. In addition, their standard of marksmanship has in the past been astonishingly low. There was an article in "Guns" or "American Handgunner" in the late '70s or early '80s by a consultant hired by the NYPD to raise the standard of marksmanship. He said he was amazed by the number of officers he encountered who didn't understand the function of the front sight and proper use of an iron sighted handgun.

The Chicago PD won't even issue it's rank and file shotguns for their cars. I'm sure this arises equally from politics and poor training. Their plan to issue M4s involved a "strength test" for selected officers. Strangely, the average female cook in the Army or Marine Corps seems to have more than adequate "strength" to wield a full sized M16A2.

The average big city police department is an intensely political entity. Don't assume that its choice of firearms and ammunition is immune from those politics.
 
In Boston BPD did in a female fan a couple years ago with a paintball gun at the Red Sox celebration.

It is still a matter of being able to place your shots. Spray and Pray is often why it is better to be the target than an innocent bystander
 
It seems the police need to improve their accuracy. I bet he fell instantly even with the misplaced bullets. In over 38 yrs of crime scene reconstruction, I personally have never seen such penetration by a handgun bullet but I have heard a lot of embelishment by offenders. I question why the window would be penetrated first, maybe last but unless they are shooting into the window from outside and that is unlikely.

In this case, I would question how he knows it was the same bullet doing all the damage. Breaking it down, most BB guns will penetrate a double pane window. A pellet gun can penetrate such a window and a vase. A .22 caliber will do the same and into a human body. Past that, there has been so much momentum lost that little will begin penetrating walls. Even using 1/4inch wallboard, that would be a half inch of wallboard, not counting the other items. With penetration comes parasite drag and resulting co-efficient friction. A rifle bullet may do it but handguns would if they are hot loads.

We spend hours studying what happens at a shooting and why. Often the area is sealed for weeks in the event we need to re-examine something. It is all needed so fault can be determined and wrongful actions decided. The path of each bullet is traced with some expensive equipment. In the event of shell casings on the floor, ground or etc, their position also tells us pretty much where the firearm was when fired, the way it was being held and the location of the shooter. My degrees are in engineering and law as well as in business. All my education, training, experience, equipment and court testimony is examined each time I testify unless there is stipulation approving my credentials. Many people do not understand all that goes on in the background after a LEO or criminal shooting.

Here is a link to a write-up on the incident. Maine.gov Mobile Web Services Lot of controversy over this event, as they didn't appear to be any formal notification by the police on who they were, and that the person shot--believed it to be a home-invasion. Since I wasn't there I have no idea what happened, I'm not adding any more to the story. But in regards to the main post, the man was shot with 40S&W, and did drop after 5 shots, but was not killed.
 
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I believe that the 9mm round itself is fine for defensive uses, its the bullet that makes the difference. My agency's duty weapon was the beretta 92fs. The duty rounds was the 147 grain sub-sonic. I always felt the bullet was too heavy and slow for the 9mm.
The 124's are way faster. We did get rid of the 9mm in favor of the couger 45acp loaded with 230 gr. federal hydroshok.
 
Sir, no offense, but if you're basing your opinions on the size of the respective loaded cartridges, you've a bit of homework to do.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

No offense taken. Yet my homework is fine. The larger the cartridge, the more variance the loads can reach. A person can overload even a .32 or they can underload a .44 mag. Factory loads are more uniform and offers more choice in larger calibers than with the 9mm. The larger cartridges usually will have more power. and that is not always a good thing either.

However, the reply I made was in reference to a statement made about the .40 being almost identical in size to the 9mm, which it is not, in any form. The .40 is not nearly identical to the .45 either.
 
I do not think the 9mm and .357 mag are even close in in either diameter or weight. I have a few hundred rounds of each and often have the ammo side by side. Not even close.

In the attached photos, I used Black Talon (yes, the original Black Talon) for comparison.

Oh, please....

Anyone have a suggestion on how to explain that 1.0-grain of bullet weight and 2/1000" of bullet diameter are actually quite close close?

But to be fair I am now totally rethinking my position on the 9mm, since your side-by-side photograph of the case rims definitely shows that the .357 Magnum case rim is much larger than the 9mm Luger.

I had no idea...
 
Here is a link to a write-up on the incident. Maine.gov Mobile Web Services Lot of controversy over this event, as they didn't appear to be any formal notification by the police on who they were, and that the person shot--believed it to be a home-invasion. Since I wasn't there I have no idea what happened, I'm not adding any more to the story. But in regards to the main post, the man was shot with 40S&W, and did drop after 5 shots, but was not killed.

That was a great write up. Seems it was a righteous shooting and possibly saved the lives of the deputies. I only wish each shooting could be that publically described. Thanks for posting the link.
 

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