Is the 9mm really that poor?

[Wee Hooker]

Ya always here folks bad mouth the 9mm as a wimpy round but I've never seen anyone volunteer to stand in front of one with a catchers mitt!

BTW: Seemed to work pretty well for the Nazi's in WW II ( and they were using crappy ball ammo.)

 

[blastfact]

9mm is enough for a SD weapon. Remember,,, pulling a pistol is of last resort. Avoid battle at all cost in public. Even if it means seeing things you don't like. In your home do as you wish. I can drag out a .44 mag if I thought I needed it. Fact is I don't. I could blow a hole in the perp and kill my neighbor or a person in a car passing by. Not to mention the children by day in the park next to my house or the teenage thugs there by night that know better than to challenge this home.

My carry is a PF-9 that I really like. Small and hurls 124gr bullets with the best of them and small. If they ever make a good priced .45 ACP the size of the PF-9 I will have one. But the .40 is a no go in this house. If I wanted to go through life with a brick strapped to my body I would do so. But that is not going to happen.

If I lived in the northern USA I would be looking to cut down and rework a CZ-52 type pistol that could deal with heavy winter clothing. As it is now the Cz-52 spends most of it night on the night stand. Reason being. Not the round count. Not it's ablity to throw rounds that splatter and destroy flesh or make big holes. I keep it there with Wolf idiot HP's because I shoot it better than any pistol I've ever owned. And I am working up my own loads for it. If you crash into my house with my old crawl space floor. I can hear where the perp is and the round will do a great job of shooting through walls, 2x4's, lath and plaster.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[paragon1]

9mm is enough for a SD weapon. Remember,,, pulling a pistol is of last resort. Avoid battle at all cost in public. Even if it means seeing things you don't like. In your home do as you wish. I can drag out a .44 mag if I thought I needed it. Fact is I don't. I could blow a hole in the perp and kill my neighbor or a person in a car passing by. Not to mention the children by day in the park next to my house or the teenage thugs there by night that know better than to challenge this home.

My carry is a PF-9 that I really like. Small and hurls 124gr bullets with the best of them and small. If they ever make a good priced .45 ACP the size of the PF-9 I will have one. But the .40 is a no go in this house. If I wanted to go through life with a brick strapped to my body I would do so. But that is not going to happen.

If I lived in the northern USA I would be looking to cut down and rework a CZ-52 type pistol that could deal with heavy winter clothing. As it is now the Cz-52 spends most of it night on the night stand. Reason being. Not the round count. Not it's ablity to throw rounds that splatter and destroy flesh or make big holes. I keep it there with Wolf idiot HP's because I shoot it better than any pistol I've ever owned. And I am working up my own loads for it. If you crash into my house with my old crawl space floor. I can hear where the perp is and the round will do a great job of shooting through walls, 2x4's, lath and plaster.

Just my .02 cents.

I think you would be very interested in the Kahr CW-45.

 

[Lt JL]

Well, that was fun. Now let's start on 5.56 vs. 7.62.

 

[blastfact]

I think you would be very interested in the Kahr CW-45.

Not worth the money IMHO. Lets face it,,,, There has been no major brake through concerning civilian arms in what,,, ( be kind ) 50 years. The only brake through has been lawyers and wussy's that are ruining this country.

Give me a built to shoot p-11 class weapon in .45 ACP. Sure you can get that little cheapy in 9mm, .40 and 357 sig. <<<< .40 and .357 after thoughts at this point. But I don't need a paper puncher or a hunting pistol for a CCW weapon. I need a 2 to 7 yard weapon. If my shot is 15 to 25 yards. I have time to run regardless of caliber.

I wanted to like the new over priced S&W pocket rocket. But 380 max? Its a belly gun with a laser... What is up with that? And 380 ammo is insane around here price wise. 22 mag is a better carry round if you redefine your point of action in public. Maybe even a .32 or .25.

 

[cmort666]

BTW: Seemed to work pretty well for the Nazi's in WW II ( and they were using crappy ball ammo.)

1. Even were I able to get them in that position, I think that the authorities would take a dim view of me capturing my opponent, making him dig his own grave, then shooting him in the back of the head.

2. While I don't mind carrying a 9x19mm handgun, I'd definitely feel more confident carrying an MP-40 rather than my Glock 19.

If you're not engaged in mass executions or carrying a submachinegun, your use of the 9x19mm isn't REALLY analogous to that of the Germans in WWII.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

say what!

I do not think the 9mm and .357 mag are even close in in either diameter or weight.

You should consider backing up on that statement if comparing a 125 grain .357 to a 124 grain 9mm...bullet, not cartridge case.

.357 magnum bullet diameter is .357"

9mm bullet diameter is .355"...that's only 2/1000 of an inch less than the .357

The 9mm 124 grain bullet is only 1 grain less in weight than the 125 grain .357 bullet. Considering the fact that there are 7000 grains to a pound, we are talking no significant difference here.

I'm not questioning your position as an expert comparing effectiveness of one cartridge/caliber to another. But, your quoted comment above makes me think about some of your other statements.

 

[oldman45]

You should consider backing up on that statement if comparing a 125 grain .357 to a 124 grain 9mm...bullet, not cartridge case.

.357 magnum bullet diameter is .357"

9mm bullet diameter is .355"...that's only 2/1000 of an inch less than the .357

The 9mm 124 grain bullet is only 1 grain less in weight than the 125 grain .357 bullet. Considering the fact that there are 7000 grains to a pound, we are talking no significant difference here.

I'm not questioning your position as an expert comparing effectiveness of one cartridge/caliber to another. But, your quoted comment above makes me think about some of your other statements.

There is more than dia and weight that we consider. Things like the charge, expansion (9mm will not expand like .357 mag). When looking at size, there is a lot that labs will compare if need be. Depending on the incident being examined, a reconstructionist will look at more as well.

We had a criminal shooting last night in the vicinity. The victim was hit with a 9mm twice. Once in the throat and once in the eye. His condition is not considered critical but he lost his eye. The bullet was recovered from the eye socket.

Had the same incident been involving a larger caliber, I doubt the outcome would be the same.

That said, many years ago, I worked a shooting in which a security guard in a bar shot a young man with a .357 mag at less than a foot away in the side of the face. The man lived but lost hearing in one ear, sustained some facial disfigurement in the jaw but with surgery, he made an almost 100% recovery.

Again, I am not arguing the case for any caliber. I have seen the 9mm not do some things that a person would expert from the caliber. In a seminar I attended the second weekend of Feb, 2010, the 9mm was called a ladies gun by the firearm experts there. I would use it if I did not have anything else. Others use and love it. Studies have shown it to be ineffective for LE work and most agencies have replaced it. Ten years from now, the .40 or whatever may well be replaced by better choices.

 

[Miss Fire]

Oh dear, I beg to differ with "firearms experts" you've quoted.
This is my ladies gun,

 

[hittman77]

No, modern 9mm JHP is not a "poor" round, or poor choice. Especially from short barreled concealed carry type pistols.

I use 127 grain 9mm +P+ in my 3913 during warm weather, and 147 grain in cold weather. Both are Winchester Ranger brand ammo, with good track records with law enforcement agencies.

I'd advise you to always go with the handgun that fits your hand, in a caliber you can control and shoot well. If that happens to be a 9mm, then you are well armed.

The only place 9mm is not deadly is on the internet. Regards 18DAI.

Very well said!

 

[nitesite]

Please, don't let this thread die.

I am enjoying it so..........

 

[sub-moa]

Please just let it die...

I'm so tired of putting on hip boots just to wade through some of the, uhmmm, "stuff" being posted as if it were fact ...

Current, premium 9mmP expanding ammunition ineffective?

Spare me ...

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I do not think the 9mm and .357 mag are even close in in either diameter or weight.

I'm not questioning your position as an expert comparing effectiveness of one cartridge/caliber to another.

I am. I'm not sure what the conclusion should be, but there is obviously something really basic missing here. Not the ideal expert witness.

 

[oldman45]

Well

As my daddy used to say, "a bit dog will holler the loudest." When a person has an opinion or favors a certain stand, any other view is going to be attacked.

Almost 800 trials, qualifiying and holding up even in the appeals court, so I am used to it.

If someone spoke against the .40, the war cry would be worse since more are using the .40.

I own a few 9mm guns and carried one for a few years. It is nice gun and is effective but not what some think it is.

The popularity of the 9mm in the US began with gangs using it and it grew from there. Popularity does not make it great.

Toyota and Honda were highly touted as being the ideal, trouble free vehicle. Consumer Reports endorsed them. Now it has been learned they have serious issues. Consumer Reports admits to letting them have a free pass for years based on people's opinions.

Unless a person examines the studies done over the years, the technical inspections and historical research of past use, they are left with their opinion based on their own use.

I said what I said, I stand by what I said and that is as far as I am taking it.

 

[wheelgun28]

From all the gel photos and expanded bullets shown all over the place, it seems very little difference between (modern) 9mm and 40. I am surprised that no one has posted the pictures of the gel and expanded bullets. The photos I have seen widely are accepted and show 9, 40, 357 sig and 45 acp. (Where does 38 spl fall into this?) Almost all equal in penetration and expansion.

I dont see why the 40 is so great? Why not just man up and go 10mm?

If 40 is better, than 357 sig must be even better and 10mm must be even better...

Many PDs must walk the line between enough firepower, over penetration (357mag) and a public perception of over gunning people (Al Sharpton types). Like most things its always a compromise.

My personal feelings are that 40 is a short timer or a flash in the pan type of round. It will just be a foot note in history.

The history of the 40 is that it was developed as a down loaded version of the 10mm so females and men of smaller size could handle it...

I just feel its far from the miracle round that some folks make it to be.


Yes I have 9s, 40s and 45acp pistols, I find 40 the least pleasant to shoot.

Beretta M9
Glock 22 and 23
Colt Combat 45 (full size, stainless)

It just the old chocolate or vanilla argument again, if we all like vanilla they wouldn't make chocolate anymore.

Its just one mans opinion, no harm in disagreeing with me

pics from http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

edit pic

edit 2

 

[primetime]

I don't post much here but I do enjoy reading the entertaining and informative posts.
My experience with the shooting of people or other dangerous animals is limited , more than some, less than others.
I worked EMS in Detroit for 17 yrs. I've seen people shot, quite a few by some standards. I've seen several guys that where up and running around the neighborhood after being shot with 9mms. I've seen 'em D.R.T. shot with a .32acp and a .22 lr
(shot placement does make all the difference). Recently a kid shot with a .45 after he snapped a shot at a store owner and missing with a 9mm. The owner returned fire with a 45 acp striking the would be robber in the shoulder. He (the robber) then ran out and ran several blocks to a relatives house before being taken to the local ER where he was arrested a short time later. (adrenaline is an amazing thing.)
I've killed a big nasty bulldog with a .32acp with a single shot but it was very close and I gave 'er a second one for good measure, afterward I was wishing for more gun.
I like the comparo of the projectiles in ballistic gel that wheel gun just posted .
But over all the biggest projectile you can place on target is the best fight stopper.
I leave you with the words of Col. Jeff Cooper
" the 9mm is made for shooting Europeans, for truly dangerous characters we have the .45acp."
Remember practice makes better, carry what you are comfortable with and can shoot well and practice. ( did I mention practice ).

As I sit typing this I have an airweight 5 shot .38 in my waist band loaded with 125gr +p jhp and I can't help but feel a little anxious.
Am I under gunned?
cheers,

 

[novalty]

So what do you think of .41AE?

 

[2hawk]

Wow, some folks are not keeping up with the times...

Seems like more than a couple of the posters here aren't aware of advances in bullet design. "Black Talon" was a third generation hollow point, and it's performance, while pretty good, has been eclipsed by newer designs.

Ballistic testing of the latest HP defensive rounds show that there is not enough difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 to say that any one in particular is the top performer. Note that this is with the newest designs; when comparing older bullet designs, bigger was almost always better. Not so anymore, and as a fan of 1911's in .45acp I almost find this to be sort of galling

Google up Dr. G.K. Roberts, or the IWBA (International Wound Ballistics Assoc.) if you really want to learn more.

Meantime, here's some good light reading: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

And, as said many times already, only hits count.

 

[oldRoger]

I would like to add a bit about J. Cooper, B. Jordan and their generation and perhaps mine. We have probably inherited a prejudice against the 9MM.
The 9MM ammunition available to us in the 50s & early 60s at least, was typically 115 gr hardball. I have most of a box of Norma around here somewhere. I don’t know what pressure it was loaded to, but I suspect not much.
It was probably a fair penetrator, but wouldn’t expand short of hitting a steel plate.

Until the work was done on bullets which gave us a hollow point which would expand at handgun velocities and reliably feed in them, I would argue that the 9MM was not a good handgun defense round.

Time certainly has changed that situation 9mm ammunition now expands and penetrates.

I personally don’t feel the 9MM to be in any way inadequate despite my prejudice. All of that being said however, I agree with whoever said to carry whatever your are comfortable and makes the biggest hole.

 

[AZ Desertrat]

With the modern JHP ammo available, the 9mm is always a good choice.