Speaking to the police after discharging your weapon.
- Thread starter sirrduke2010
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My job is to reconstruct crime and accident scenes. It is what I am best at. I get statements, look at the indisputable evidence, make measurements, photo the scene and question everyone in the area.
Take my word for it, anything you say can and will be used against you. For all practical purposes, you are the bad guy until proven different.
But the best advice I can give you is not to be holding a gun when the police arrive. I suggest if at all possible, lay the gun down as close to your location at the time of shooting as you can. Just keep an eye on it until the police arrive and have taken possession of it. And remember, the person you shot will likely have a friend in the vicinity that is not going to be favorable to your position. DO NOT SPEAK TO ANYONE AND DO NOT TRY TO FIND WITNESSES TO HELP YOU. tHAT IS THE JOB OF THE INVESTIGATORS AND EXPERTS.
Take my word for it, anything you say can and will be used against you. For all practical purposes, you are the bad guy until proven different.
But the best advice I can give you is not to be holding a gun when the police arrive. I suggest if at all possible, lay the gun down as close to your location at the time of shooting as you can. Just keep an eye on it until the police arrive and have taken possession of it. And remember, the person you shot will likely have a friend in the vicinity that is not going to be favorable to your position. DO NOT SPEAK TO ANYONE AND DO NOT TRY TO FIND WITNESSES TO HELP YOU. tHAT IS THE JOB OF THE INVESTIGATORS AND EXPERTS.
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cshoff
Member
I would agree to the extent that a person probably shouldn't go out looking for witnesses, but there are certainly some benefits to quickly pointing out a witness or evidence to an investigator. Witnesses don't always stick around and wait to be interviewed, and evidence has a way of disappearing from the scene of an incident. Cartridge cases can be carried away in the tread of a tire or boot, for example. Blood spots can be washed away by rain. Weapons that a "bad guy" ditched can be carried off or otherwise removed from the area before investigators find it.
A case in point. I have a good friend who is a detective with St. Louis City police who worked a case last year where a man hit another guy over the head with a tire iron in a parking lot down town. When the police arrived, the guy who had been hit over the head was rushed to the hospital and the other guy refused to talk. He was subsequently arrested and placed in custody while investigators tried to sort out what happened. I guess it was the next morning when the guy's lawyer came in and spoke with him that they went ahead and talked to my friend who was working the case. At that time, the guy claimed he acted in self defense and that the guy he had hit with the tire iron had actually pulled a knife on him and threatened to steel his car, prompting him to defend himself. He also told my friend that the knife was laying right there in the parking lot under one of the cars that was parked nearby. Of course, try as they did, the crime scene investigators never found the knife.
Luckily for the guy who was claiming self defense, a day or two later when my friend interviewed the guy who he had been struck with the tire iron, he was able to get a confession out of him that he had indeed pulled a knife and attempted to steal the car.
Needless to say, things could have gone a lot different without that confession. Had the guy pointed out that knife in the parking lot that night, he would have at least had some evidence to support his claim of self defense if the other guy wouldn't have confessed. Absent that evidence and the confession, it could have come down to a "his word against mine" kind of thing.
OIF2
Member
Evidence disappears anyway, no matter who is there. Since I deal primarily with fatal accidents, one of the worst disappearing acts takes place with Anti Lock Braking. If there is any skid marks, it will be surface dusting that blows away with wind, passing cars and such. I have also had guns disappear, found guns that were not involved and many other things. Shell casings are picked up by bystanders and all the people in the world is not going to stop one from doing that. They was a souvenier of the shooting. When I get brought in on a case is usually several days the event and I still will often find evidence the initial investigators missed. The H&R subject I interviewed yesterday was unknown to the patrol officer that responded. I found him by talking to people that lived and worked around the accident site. Finding where he lived was the hard part since nobody knows what a person's legal name is.
BTW: One of the local agencies is missing three full auto weapons. Been gone for over a year and they have no idea who has them or where they went. If they lose their own weapons, why worry about crime scene evidence disappearing.
A brief statement to the effect that you were defending yourself (or another) is probably safe. Other than that, talk to an attorney before saying anything. An attorney you hire or who has been hired for you, and represents you in that particular matter. Not your buddy's friend who who is a divorce lawyer, not your wife's nephew who just got out of law school, etc.
You don't have to be an a** about it, you can be very polite when telling the police you feel you should consult with an attorney before giving your statement. Either the cop will understand and respect your caution, or he is the kind of cop you definitely don't want to talk to without first getting legal advice anyway. Besides, by the time you can meet with a lawyer, you will have calmed down and the events may be more clear to you than while your heart rate and blood pressure are up and adrenaline is still pumping through your system.
The problem with saying anything is then being able to stop. People, especially under stress, tend to get verbal diarrhea. If you can't control what might come out of your mouth, then say nothing. Anything you have to say can wait a few hours until you have competent legal help...even if the cops say they are going to hold you. Small details can make a big difference. Even if you were doing the "right thing" in your mind and according to your understanding of the law, you might not explain it correctly and later regret what you said.
Keep in mind that what you say will also be available to the bad guy you were forced to shoot (or his family) who will no doubt have visions of great wealth coming out of the situation.
Very few lawyers have ever said to a client "I wish you had said more to the cops that night."
The above is an opinion and not legal advice. If you want legal advice, find a lawyer in your state that you can trust and pay him or her for some advice specific to you.
You don't have to be an a** about it, you can be very polite when telling the police you feel you should consult with an attorney before giving your statement. Either the cop will understand and respect your caution, or he is the kind of cop you definitely don't want to talk to without first getting legal advice anyway. Besides, by the time you can meet with a lawyer, you will have calmed down and the events may be more clear to you than while your heart rate and blood pressure are up and adrenaline is still pumping through your system.
The problem with saying anything is then being able to stop. People, especially under stress, tend to get verbal diarrhea. If you can't control what might come out of your mouth, then say nothing. Anything you have to say can wait a few hours until you have competent legal help...even if the cops say they are going to hold you. Small details can make a big difference. Even if you were doing the "right thing" in your mind and according to your understanding of the law, you might not explain it correctly and later regret what you said.
Keep in mind that what you say will also be available to the bad guy you were forced to shoot (or his family) who will no doubt have visions of great wealth coming out of the situation.
Very few lawyers have ever said to a client "I wish you had said more to the cops that night."
The above is an opinion and not legal advice. If you want legal advice, find a lawyer in your state that you can trust and pay him or her for some advice specific to you.
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Springfeildkid585
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What do you say when calling 9-1-1? Clearly you do need to inform the police of the dead man in your liveing room.
Dang, now I have to pack donuts and bagels along with my speed loaders, any certain brand coffee.
OIF2
Member
OIF2
Member
"Advice" like this will definitely go a long way towards making a difficult situation into one you won't recover from. Now, if you just shot a 14 year-old after he egged your house, yes, I'd advise you to shut up and wait for an attorney. You're in big trouble anyway, so don't make it worse. There's a BIG difference in that scenario, though, and one where you just shot someone trying to jack you at gunpoint in the Albertson's parking lot. Saying the cops "aren't your friends" and will immediately "use everything you say against you" is misinformed and, well, stupid.
No, the cops aren't there to be your buddies. They're there to solve the crime. But they have no interest in putting a case on an innocent person. If you shut up, you inhibit the investigation, which will be noted, and do yourself a grave disservice. You need to tell the responding uniforms what happened; this is not screwing yourself over. Be assured, if there are any witnesses, they'll be telling the cops what happened. I'd prefer to have my own version out there. If the suspect you shot has any friends, they'll be putting out their version, too. And you need to tell the cops if any of the suspect's friends got away, where they went and if they were armed. This is a safety statement and allows the responding units to fan out and look for additional suspects. You need to talk to the cops. Now, no one is saying to spill your guts, make judgement calls on your tactics or incriminate yourself. If you're given a Miranda warning, shut and wait for a lawyer. You're a suspect in a possible murder.
You will be transported to the station to await the investigating detectives, who will first go to the crime scene to do a walk-through and interview witnesses. They will then interview you at the station. What you say will confirm what they now already know. Most shootings are pretty easy to figure out to a veteran detective. They understand that there will be differences in what happened; it occurs in every shooting. For instance, number of shots fired. If you're not sure, say so. You need to get your version out there. If you're quiet, you're slowing the investigation and irritating the detective who recommends whether to file charges or not to the DA. Not admitting you shot someone, when it was a self-defense killing, is not helpful. Someone is dead in your living room, who else shot him? He obviously wasn't supposed to be there. A GSR (gunshot residue) test is going to be done, anyway. Everyone here thinks an attorney is your saviour; most lawyers don't have a clue about what happens in a gunfight or how an investigation is run. You want to wait several hours or days in jail to speak with an attorney, fine. But it's a dumb idea if you want to clear yourself quickly and go home.
I investigated numerous shootings in a big city; it doesn't go down like the armchair experts here think it does. If you carry a gun, then do your research in your state. Learn what happens in a homicide investigation. Everyone here wants to know how to handle a shooting situation; better to plan how to handle the post-shooting. There are worse things than killing someone; killing someone and going to jail is one. If you can't control yourself after a stressful incident, then maybe you shouldn't be carrying a gun. Think about your responses to the police; clamming up immediately is not a good plan. And that's from a cop that did this for a living. My advice, based on over 24 years in a big city where shootings are a common, daily occurance. Don't be stupid; think, plan, do your homework, rehearse and consider carefully what you'll say.
Bob
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Varangi
Member
I like Bob, "OIF2" have spent quite a lot of time around weapons discharges, shootings, etc. I agree with everything he has said. I will add just a couple of items.
Part of your RESPONSIBLY when you strap on that "Hog Leg" is protection of innocent life. Civilians and Cops must give a "Public Safety Statement"
---In what direction they shot?- down range victims
---Approx' number of rounds fired-if known
I have been involved in shootings, investigated both OIS's and civilian shootings, responded as administrative supervisor and as an advocate for the officer involved in the shooting- worn many hats.
Part of our firearms training was exposing the young officer to the OIS process and starting the mental muscle memory process. Civilians who have CCW,s should have intimate knowledge of their respective laws and be able to articulate their actions in the appropriate manner.
Mike
30yrs LEO
Part of your RESPONSIBLY when you strap on that "Hog Leg" is protection of innocent life. Civilians and Cops must give a "Public Safety Statement"
---In what direction they shot?- down range victims
---Approx' number of rounds fired-if known
I have been involved in shootings, investigated both OIS's and civilian shootings, responded as administrative supervisor and as an advocate for the officer involved in the shooting- worn many hats.
Part of our firearms training was exposing the young officer to the OIS process and starting the mental muscle memory process. Civilians who have CCW,s should have intimate knowledge of their respective laws and be able to articulate their actions in the appropriate manner.
Mike
30yrs LEO
OIF2
Member
++++1. What a lot of people here are forgetting is their responsibility as a citizen. Carrying a weapon is a heavy burden that requires the CCW person to think of the consequences of their actions and public safety. Some here have thought about an "active shooter" scenario...does that mean that after you've "engaged", you're NOT going to tell the responding cops what happened, how many more there are, what weapons, etc.? If you're not prepared to do this, don't carry.
Bob
Bob
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The main thing is to at least provide the basics, If a cop was getting really detailed, I would refuse to answer and lawyer up. As a cop who was involved in a shooting, I knew from experience what to say, some civilians may not.
cshoff
Member
I agree. It's not reasonable to believe that "saying nothing" is the correct action to take in every situation. If, for example, there were multiple armed attackers, you downed one with your shot(s), and the others took off into a crowded shopping mall, it would be IMPERATIVE for law enforcement to have this information so they can start actively looking for these dangerous people.
hobby-gunsmith
US Veteran
speaking to police after discharging your weapon
In Florida, the only time deadly force can be used is if a forcibly felony is being committed. The appropriate statement to the police is "I was assaulted and thought he or she was armed. In fear of my life, I was forced to shoot him or her in self defense". The only other statement to provide is the evidence of broken glass, door latch or some other forced entry in a home if encountered. Also, advise the Police, you are shaken from the incident and need time to collect your thoughts and to speak to your attorney. When a LEO is involved in a shooting, they are given at least 24 hours to consult with their PBA or FOP representatives and attorney. If you have called 911, don't forget to retrieve the recording for future evidence. Most of the time, you will have only 30 days to do this. Take pictures of the scene and by all means, get statements from eye witnesses before they disappear and forgotton.
In Florida, the only time deadly force can be used is if a forcibly felony is being committed. The appropriate statement to the police is "I was assaulted and thought he or she was armed. In fear of my life, I was forced to shoot him or her in self defense". The only other statement to provide is the evidence of broken glass, door latch or some other forced entry in a home if encountered. Also, advise the Police, you are shaken from the incident and need time to collect your thoughts and to speak to your attorney. When a LEO is involved in a shooting, they are given at least 24 hours to consult with their PBA or FOP representatives and attorney. If you have called 911, don't forget to retrieve the recording for future evidence. Most of the time, you will have only 30 days to do this. Take pictures of the scene and by all means, get statements from eye witnesses before they disappear and forgotton.
OIF2
Member
Interesting...so cops in Florida aren't required to give a "public safety" statement to responding fellow officers, regarding additional suspects, description, suspect direction, weapons, hostages, possible wounds, direction and number of shots, possible wounded citizens, etc.? No info that would be crucial to setting up a suspect perimeter? Nothing that would help FIND the bad guys and maybe solve the crime?
Bob
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Varangi
Member
Hmmm, to speak or not to speak. Ok, Ill bite- I like Onion Bagels, heavily toasted with light cream cheese and black coffee. I try to wear clean underwear for days when I **** my pants over a gun-fight I never wanted.
I was minding my own business one dark and stormy night searching for a pizza when a fine upstanding citizen(FUC) looked in my direction as I was driving a 4dr. late model crown vic (family car-don't ya know). He wasn't a ford fan so he started jogging down the block. I love fords, so being a caring humanitarian, I followed him down the street to inquire if I could show him some of the finer features of my ford. A busybody citizen(BC) saw the FUC jogging toward him and me in the street,pacing him, trying to show off my car. The BC was a ford fan also and asked the FUC to give my ford a chance. The FUC must of been abused by a ford as a child because he politely refused the BC's advise. The BC had a heavy leather jacket on and heated up with all the activity. The FUC, being a caring sole retrieved his mother's 10inch carving knife that he was bringing to the butcher for sharpening and made several incisions to the jacket under the BC's left armpit in an attempt to cool him down. It had the desired effect. I was so impressed with FUC, that I followed him around a corner, exited my ford, left it running followed him over a fence, and tried to get his attention. He must of thought I needed ventilation also- I just spent $10.00 at Walmart for my sweat-shirt so I declined his thoughtful gesture and ventilated something else.
And you thought I was going to add something useful to this post.
I was minding my own business one dark and stormy night searching for a pizza when a fine upstanding citizen(FUC) looked in my direction as I was driving a 4dr. late model crown vic (family car-don't ya know). He wasn't a ford fan so he started jogging down the block. I love fords, so being a caring humanitarian, I followed him down the street to inquire if I could show him some of the finer features of my ford. A busybody citizen(BC) saw the FUC jogging toward him and me in the street,pacing him, trying to show off my car. The BC was a ford fan also and asked the FUC to give my ford a chance. The FUC must of been abused by a ford as a child because he politely refused the BC's advise. The BC had a heavy leather jacket on and heated up with all the activity. The FUC, being a caring sole retrieved his mother's 10inch carving knife that he was bringing to the butcher for sharpening and made several incisions to the jacket under the BC's left armpit in an attempt to cool him down. It had the desired effect. I was so impressed with FUC, that I followed him around a corner, exited my ford, left it running followed him over a fence, and tried to get his attention. He must of thought I needed ventilation also- I just spent $10.00 at Walmart for my sweat-shirt so I declined his thoughtful gesture and ventilated something else.
And you thought I was going to add something useful to this post.
hobby-gunsmith
US Veteran
speaking to police after discharge of weapon
Bob, I was refering to a LEO that was involved in a shooting and having time to confer with his union rep and attorney. The situation has nothing to do with any discription of the scene with regards to public safety statements to responding fellow officers. Most departments have their officers involved in a shooting placed on paid administrative leave until the investigation is completed whether the shooting was justified or not. Here in Florida, the investigation is conducted by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement in Tallahassee.
Bob, I was refering to a LEO that was involved in a shooting and having time to confer with his union rep and attorney. The situation has nothing to do with any discription of the scene with regards to public safety statements to responding fellow officers. Most departments have their officers involved in a shooting placed on paid administrative leave until the investigation is completed whether the shooting was justified or not. Here in Florida, the investigation is conducted by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement in Tallahassee.
This issue is examined in great detail in Alan Korwin's recently released book, After You Shoot, available from gunlaws.com. Recommended reading for anyone who carries a gun for self defense. Alan notes that cops involved in shootings are whisked away from the crime scene, provided immediate counsel, shielded from the public and the press, i.e., prevented from acting against their own interest. He also warns to be very cautious about what you say to the 911 operator --- your call will be recorded, and "anything you say may be used against you." He suggests asking someone else to make the call --- someone who won't be suffering from the excitement, adrenalin, fear, etc. --- and simply saying "there's been a shooting, send the police and an ambulance" without any emotional elaboration.
Seneca
US Veteran
I have told several of my legal gun totin' friends that if you aren't reading the "S&W Forum" on a regular basis, you are missing some of the best ( and most compelling ) information available to us civilian dudes with CPLs. Thanks to all, especially the LEOs, for sharing your years of experience and opinions that may keep the rest of us out of court ( criminal, civil, and bankruptcy ) as we go about life with our handguns tucked up under our shirts and in our pockets. As mentioned, it is a HUGE responsibility to carry a firearm and one that I feel many wannabe cowboys completely disregard as they make the decision to pack. I make every effort to be fully cognisant of all aspects of carrying and this Forum goes a long ways in providing valuable information to that end.
Peace
Peace
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