Are we drawing are guns too soon?

[cavnamvet]

The key is training and experience... if not a LEO then you'll
have to rely on training only.. become proficient with all your firearms and maintain them well..learn the legal stuff, concentrating on justification for using deadly force...
the two main factors being an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to yourself or another.
Then develop a mind set to employ when faced with that situation..

With regard to drawing your firearm, there is an interim step you can use when you see it going the way of an armed confrontation but all the factors are not yet in place for deadly force...for instance you are in a mall and some maniac is running around waving a gun ...you can draw and hold the firearm facing downward on the side of your leg or hold it behind your back, now more ready to use it, but not exposing yourself to potential criminal charges of agg assault for pointing it at someone before determining deadly force is justified. I have done this countless times as a LEO for 36 yrs
when responding to armed robbery calls, etc.

Most importantly remember this.. and I speak from experience..

It is not how fast or straight you shoot that will most help you
prevail in an armed confrontation, but rather the willingness to shoot will save your life... and conversely, the hesitation to shoot will get you killed more often than not.

Don't listen to all the amateur attorneys on this and other sites
who will scare you into that hesitation I mentioned above.
Just remember the two main points and always operate within
those parameters. If you can't do that with confidence, then you might be better off not carrying a firearm.

 

[Big Cholla]

I'm the person mentioned that met a confrontation by rolling down my vehicle window and displaying my handgun. I was already aware that the second person had a deadly weapon in the form of tire iron in his right hand. I was also aware that the first antagonist had put his right hand deep into his jacket pocket. My vehicle was pined in place by their vehicle. I knew that if I tried to talk my way out of the confrontation that as a minimum my new Cadillac was going to take a few hits. I was not going to have to shoot thru a window that was inches from my face IF I had to shoot. I was not a LEO at the time, but had lots of firearm training and CCW training. As stated, you had to be there and in my position before being justified in judging my actions after the fact.

I whole heartily second "cavnamvet's" suggestion of drawing and holding a handgun down and out of sight until either needed or re-holstered. Later in life as a LEO I also used that technique many many times. And now as retired and under unusual circumstances I have answered my front door the same way. The fastest 'draw' is by far to have the handgun already in hand. It is totally acceptable to just apologize if required. It is totally unacceptable to get shot while trying to draw from concealment. ........ Big Cholla

 

[cmort666]

I have to give my two cents here because this is something I have thought of in the past. It seems like people who don't have any FORMAL training are the ones most likely to draw at an unnecessary time. The ones with Military/LEO training are the ones who usually think the situation through and have the know how to use other tactics to de-escalate the situation. It's because of that thought I believe that anyone attempting to get a CCW permit or any firearm permit for that matter, should be required to take a formal class that will not only teach you how to use the weapon, but how to use other methods to AVOID needing to use that weapon.

1. I'm from Chicago. You're NEVER going to get me to go along with ANY sort of permit/license for OWNERSHIP.
2. We have a mandatory training requirement for an Ohio CHL. Were it up to me, I would ELIMINATE the firearms portion of it and have it STRICTLY about firearms, carry, and use of deadly force law, for the following reasons:
   • Ohio firearms law (especially the initial concealed carry law) is often irrational and indeed STUPID. No sane person ever would imagine that it would be perfectly legal for somebody with a CHL to be walking down the street with a Model 36 in his pocket, but instantly become a criminal by getting into a car. That part of the law was eliminated recently, probably with a LOT of people never knowing it was in effect, or understanding it. I've seen almost nobody get into trouble because they didn't know their gun. I've seen a number of people get into trouble because they didn't know or obey wildly counter-intuitive law.
   • Personal experience and observation tells me that the odds are that a cop will not know (and in some cases care about) the law. If they can't be bothered to know relevant law, YOU had BETTER be sure that YOU do. Just the other day, a local cop tried to badger me into notifying when NOT carrying. Remember, NOBODY is going to make excuses for YOU if you don't know the law. They'll just hang you out to dry.

 

[cmort666]

With regard to drawing your firearm, there is an interim step you can use when you see it going the way of an armed confrontation but all the factors are not yet in place for deadly force...for instance you are in a mall and some maniac is running around waving a gun ...you can draw and hold the firearm facing downward on the side of your leg or hold it behind your back, now more ready to use it, but not exposing yourself to potential criminal charges of agg assault for pointing it at someone before determining deadly force is justified. I have done this countless times as a LEO for 36 yrs when responding to armed robbery calls, etc.

As pointed out by Massad Ayoob, that's one of the benefits of pocket carry. You can have your hand ON your firearm without performing any overtly threatening actions. That permits you to draw quickly, or in some cases fire THROUGH your pocket if necessary, while never telegraphing your intentions or exposing your firearm.

I frequently carry my Model 36 no-dash in a pocket holster. It's trivially easy to casually put my hands in my pockets while talking to somebody without arousing any suspicion.

I'm not a big one for waving guns around. I've only pointed a loaded firearm at somebody once, and it was in the middle of a probable carjacking attempt after 1:00am on the Interstate.

1. Ignore (verbally) an antagonist.
2. Attempt to walk away from an antagonist.
3. If the antagonist becomes a clear and present danger to life and limb, shoot the antagonist until he's no longer a threat.

 

[Will Carry]

Good subject for a post. Thanks for posting it.

Tsun Tsu says it is best to win without fighting.

Always try to avoid a conflict. Put distance between you and the threat if possible. Never brandish your weapon trying to intimidate someone. The handgun is a last resort.

 

[cavnamvet]

As pointed out by Massad Ayoob, that's one of the benefits of pocket carry. You can have your hand ON your firearm without performing any overtly threatening actions. That permits you to draw quickly, or in some cases fire THROUGH your pocket if necessary, while never telegraphing your intentions or exposing your firearm.

I frequently carry my Model 36 no-dash in a pocket holster. It's trivially easy to casually put my hands in my pockets while talking to somebody without arousing any suspicion.

I'm not a big one for waving guns around. I've only pointed a loaded firearm at somebody once, and it was in the middle of a probable carjacking attempt after 1:00am on the Interstate.

1. Ignore (verbally) an antagonist.
2. Attempt to walk away from an antagonist.
3. If the antagonist becomes a clear and present danger to life and limb, shoot the antagonist until he's no longer a threat.

Massad Ayoob may advocate firing your weapon from a jacket pocket if necessary but from a pants pocket?!! Wow, things could get a little warm down there or worse if you know what I mean! I can visulize the muzzle blast from that 2" barrel model 36 going off no more than an inch from your groin. Personally, I value the family jewels too much to be playing that game.

Furthermore, drawing a weapon from a pocket holster can be done quickly while practicing in your living room but under stress how quickly?

I have used a pocket holster and placed my hand on the firearm when alerted but when the threat level escalated, drawing the firearm and dropping my hand to my side or behind the back as I mentioned. For instance, you are walking down a poorly lighted street and a couple of individuals
(can't profile here) start approaching you. The hand would go into the pocket on the gun but then if say you crossed the street to avoid them and they continued to follow, the gun should come out at that point.

I do agree with what you said about avoiding the confrontation
whenever possible.

 

[cmort666]

Massad Ayoob may advocate firing your weapon from a jacket pocket if necessary but from a pants pocket?!! Wow, things could get a little warm down there or worse if you know what I mean! I can visulize the muzzle blast from that 2" barrel model 36 going off no more than an inch from your groin. Personally, I value the family jewels too much to be playing that game.

I wouldn't shoot any kind of firearm from a pants pocket if I could help it. In most cases, with most pocket holsters, you just about CAN'T do it. I was referring strictly to jacket or coat pockets.

 

[Will Carry]

I think if you shot your family jewels off, the threat would laugh himself to death.

 

[cmort666]

I think if you shot your family jewels off, the threat would laugh himself to death.

Whether you "shot your family jewels off" or not, I'm fairly reliably informed that it's quite difficult to laugh at all with a sucking chest wound... at least that's what the meager medical knowledge I acquired in the Army taught me...

 

[sirrduke2010]

I do believe that people that have CCWs have self defense taught into the course. You can't know what will happen in a confrontation. Street law isn't fair and it isn't just. Let's call pulling a weapon a street fight which is unfair. Either the attacker has you outnumbered, outgunned, or both. They also may not be armed and by themselves.

If it is a gang they all could be packing or could have a combination of weapons. Am I doing a what if? A gang of 5 in a car fully armed with assault rifles and handguns chased a black belt in Karate down the street. He was able to escape. Now if he pulled a gun on them there would have been a shootout. He probably would've been hit and/or killed in that shootout.

I am sorry but you have to have the idea the attacker could be armed or have friends you don't see and that is why most international authorities recommend you try to escape first.

Big Cholla I didn't see the whole story in what you were talking about and after hearing the whole story I can see your point of view better.

Maybe if there is one message I could leave people with is don't assume anything about your attackers. Fortunately we have seen how the potential victim has prevailed but if you read more stories of attacks not posted on here there have been victims that died and/or were injured after pulling a weapon. I know I see a lot of persons saying "what ifs" that are beyond of the realm of imagination and probably will never happen. You have to cover your potential weaknesses which could be your back or what you can't see.

If you can avoid a violent confrontation that is the best way because you don't have to deal with the police, the DA, possible jail time, the repercussions of your actions, etc. You can walk away without having to worry about a gang coming after you or being sued by a grieving family. I can see the value in pulling a weapon and pointing if threatened but you still have to be aware of your surroundings. In my opinion the optimal agenda should be that you are able to avoid a threatening situation or confrontation and walk away without any consequence, fallout, backlash, and/or aftermath from that potential conflict or danger. Starting here if you can but acting upon what the situation calls for. I think it is a good thing to be able to carry a firearm but I would include it with a good self defense education.

 

[cmort666]

Maybe if there is one message I could leave people with is don't assume anything about your attackers.

The ONLY thing I assume about them is that they mean me harm... otherwise they wouldn't BE "my ATTACKERS". If someone puts me in immediate, credible fear of life and limb, they should EXPECT a bad outcome for themselves if I can in ANY way engineer one, whether it be with a gun, a knife, or a frozen turkey leg.

If you can avoid a violent confrontation that is the best way because you don't have to deal with the police, the DA, possible jail time, the repercussions of your actions, etc.

Just do not be misled into thinking that that is (or SHOULD be) your primary goal. THAT should be to remain, unmolested and failing that, unharmed. All too often I've seen people who seem FAR more concerned with not USING deadly force than in avoiding having someone else use it on THEM. That's certainly not MY goal.

My totally non-negotiable objective is to remain unharmed, if not unmolested. That means that I'm willing to do WHATEVER it takes to avoid harm to myself inflicted by another person. If that involves walking away I'll do it. If that requires two center of mass and one to the head, I'll do THAT. What I'm NEVER going to do is take ANY action that's premised on trust in the judgment, good sense and basic human decency of an attacker. If they had any of those things, they would be ATTACKING me. That means that if you put me in reasonable and immediate fear of life and limb, I'm going to act on the premise that you MEANT to do that. That also means that any sort of surrender or submission on my part is going to AT MOST be a ruse or deception until I can catch you off guard and render you no longer a threat, be it with a punch to the throat or a bullet between the eyes.

When you threaten me with death or great bodily harm, you've gone past the point of no return. There probably isn't going to be an opportunity for you to change your mind. The odds are you didn't call ahead to schedule your attack. Don't expect me to give you a heads up regarding the response.

 

[WC145]

sirduke2010 - Please remind me of your experience, background, and training. I'm interested to know where all of your "what if's" and advice are coming from. You post threads as though you are an authority but much of the advice you offer and points you try to make don't hold up.

 

[kennyb]

whew.....LOLOL...

 

[oldman45]

As for myself, I try to stay out of areas where gangs hang out. I avoid areas where a confrontation is most likely. If a person sleeps with dogs, they have to expect a few fleas.

You have the right to go where ever you want but you have to accept the risks for being there as well. I go into such areas in work but I also often have other good guys with me.

A person does not have to draw a gun to let someone know they are carrying.

The problem is too many people get a carry permit that does not come with common sense.

 

[cmort666]

As for myself, I try to stay out of areas where gangs hang out.

When I was a child, my family would have had to move out of Chicago.

Some of us have limited options.

 

[BearBio]

I was taught in the Army that battleplans are great until the first shot is fired.

We each need to define our own parameters. Mine are to use my weapon basically under two sets of conditions: (1) I will NOT be tied up or (2) If bad guys start shooting people. Otherwise, only if me or mine are attacked.

I've had several defensive courses taught by the Feds (well, mostly more of security classes than combat, etc) and done CSI type work for our Special Agents. Situational awareness is the best defense.

 

[Austerity]

I wouldn't pull my gun unless it was the last possible action I had left.

 

[kyf]

I frequently carry my Model 36 no-dash in a pocket holster. It's trivially easy to casually put my hands in my pockets while talking to somebody without arousing any suspicion.

1. Ignore (verbally) an antagonist.
2. Attempt to walk away from an antagonist.
3. If the antagonist becomes a clear and present danger to life and limb, shoot the antagonist until he's no longer a threat.

The last place I would put my hands during any kind of "conversation" is in my pants pocket(s). Why restrict your hands? Granted, we are talking about a "discussion" with no visible sign of a weapon from the other party. I would also be scanning the other party's hands, demeanor, clothing and my surroundings.

 

[Kanewpadle]

The last place I would put my hands during any kind of "conversation" is in my pants pocket(s). Why restrict your hands? Granted, we are talking about a "discussion" with no visible sign of a weapon from the other party. I would also be scanning the other party's hands, demeanor, clothing and my surroundings.

You would be surprised at fast one can pull a j frame out of a pocket. It's faster than drawing from concealment. It's the next closest thing to having your gun already drawn.

Besides, if you have let them get that close, and you don't move to create distance, your already behind the 8 ball.

 

[cwo4uscgret]

Well I think he has

sirduke2010 - Please remind me of your experience, background, and training. I'm interested to know where all of your "what if's" and advice are coming from. You post threads as though you are an authority but much of the advice you offer and points you try to make don't hold up.

a lot of experience viewing on-line videos by "Internet" Experts - you know, anyone with a webcam, internet access, and an opinion, becomes an expert!

Duke - one of the reasons I don't like what if/what do you do scenarios is because they are usually speculative.

On the subject of when to draw - I am a law enforcement officer and a retired Coast Guard Commissioned Warrant Officer. I also have a Michigan State Concealed Pistol License; in addition to my experience I have to know the difference between drawing and using my firearm at work and when off-duty. It boils down to several words, that have repeatedly been told to you in all your what if scenarios:

Training and Experience

I know when I will pull my gun; wherever I go.