cyprant
Member
Because i installed an apex fss trigger kit and I also shoot 1911s.
Why have a thumb safety on an M&P Pistol!
- Thread starter Houdini1953
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They don't seem to be having any trouble selling all the Shields
they make, anyway....
scattershot
Member
And it's pretty unobtrusive, for all that. If you don't like it, just don't use it. I doubt it would get in your way.
bunkshaner
Member
I have a .45 4.5in with thumb safety....(I have had glocks as well) but I went with the thumb safety because it just makes me feel better having one in the house with a safety. I know safeties are mechanical and can fail but it does help put my mind at ease some what...lol. If I lived alone I probably wouldn't care. Having the safety is just another tool when teaching my kids how to shoot and about guns in general...which is probably more the reason I got the thumb safety.
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Best post in the thread.
coobie
Member
How about it,s a personal choice
Been shooting for 40 plus years and like a thumb saftey on my pistols
Been shooting for 40 plus years and like a thumb saftey on my pistols
funny you mention MA. when talking about this issue....if you look at the S&W website....the MA compliant M&P 9 has NO thumb safety... and as far as the 10 shot clips....big deal if you have to change a clip...if I am carrying a 9mm and need more than 10 shots all at once, I need something more than a 9. just sayin' Product: Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm - No Thumb Safety
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I also cannot think of a reason I would want such a device on the M&P.
As I read these posts for and against a thumb safety on an M&P no one has mentioned children.
I am a responsible gun owner. My Shield is always holstered and when not on my person it is locked away in my Gunvault. However, accidents happen and children get their hands on loaded guns. I like the idea that if a child pulled the trigger on my loaded Shield it would not go bang and hopefully I would realize my error in judgement (leaving a loaded gun unattended) before the child figures out the safety.
Russ
I am a responsible gun owner. My Shield is always holstered and when not on my person it is locked away in my Gunvault. However, accidents happen and children get their hands on loaded guns. I like the idea that if a child pulled the trigger on my loaded Shield it would not go bang and hopefully I would realize my error in judgement (leaving a loaded gun unattended) before the child figures out the safety.
Russ
I'm new to handgun ownership (less than a year). Bought my M&P 9 FS last November and have had a blast with it.
Anywho, it doesn't have a safety and I sorta thought I wouldn't really want a safety after practicing with this pistol.
Then recently bought the 22 which of course comes with the safety. I didn't think I'd like it but after quite a bit of shooting and handling, I really do.
So for me it really doesn't matter if it has a safety or not and I can see benefits from both sides of opinion. If in a defensive situation I don't think the safety would be any problem at all to disengage.
Just a few thoughts from a new shooter who is trying to continually get better
(Gotta run, heading to the range for more practice!)
Anywho, it doesn't have a safety and I sorta thought I wouldn't really want a safety after practicing with this pistol.
Then recently bought the 22 which of course comes with the safety. I didn't think I'd like it but after quite a bit of shooting and handling, I really do.
So for me it really doesn't matter if it has a safety or not and I can see benefits from both sides of opinion. If in a defensive situation I don't think the safety would be any problem at all to disengage.
Just a few thoughts from a new shooter who is trying to continually get better
(Gotta run, heading to the range for more practice!)
My earlier, light-hearted comment that included kbm6893's post was not meant to disagree with him. I am a firm believer in his first point (quoted), and while I have no knowledge of the second, it does not surprise. When I can get around to it, my un-safetied M&Ps will someday be replaced by similar models with safeties - or safeties installed, if that is possible. It's just a matter of time.
Atticaz
Member
I would say the answer is in the question.
Delos
Member
If memory serves
Well, let me test my memory. At one time I was well read on this subject.
To the question about why some have external safeties and some do not -- the professional answer is:
"there is a market for pistols with external safeties and a market for pistols with no external safeties.
The glock style trigger safety and the S&W trigger hinge safety are both primarily anti drop safeties. When someone drops the pistol the inertia generated when it hit's the ground will not move the trigger bar inside the pistol.
The old 1911 .45 auto workhorse was perfect for two world wars. In the 1960s (as they were gearing up for the series 70?) I read a well written article. The writer claimed (and I believe) that the inertia firing pin can not fire a cartridge unless dropped from a building about ten stories high onto cement with it landing perfectly on the muzzle. Assuming the force did not push the slide back enough to activate the original out of battery slide lock.
I have not looked closely at the new 1911 style 45 autos but the inertia firing pin does not reach from hammer to primer at the same time on any I have seen. It must travel forward of its own inertia to pop the primer. If you have time some day take a tongue depressor or similar wood and push down a 1911 45 firing pin level with the keeper, then notice it is not sticking out the of the breach face. The safest way to carry a 1911 45 auto is hammer down with loaded chamber. Second safest no doubt is cocked with leather strap under hammer over firing pin. (People who have gun accidents can be creative in ways to blame the gun). (Therefore the suits in the front office that order guns for police and military love lots of safeties).
The S&W model 10 revolver we all loved probably had a 12 pound double action trigger pull and a 3 or 3.5 pound short crisp pull for accurate shooting. It was the perfect police handgun like the 45 auto was the perfect military handgun.
When the big city drug gangs got more and more firepower the police had to keep up. When Glock first came out with a polymer frame, striker fired, half cocked gun with high capacity magazine it was wonderful. I believe my first Glock 17 has a 3.5 pound trigger. Apparently many accidents happened when they were shoved in behind a belt with no holster and also with the overly flexible inside the belt holsters. A few accidents happened when officers crammed their gun in holster after an incident with finger still on the trigger. And many more.
Anyway it seems to me that Glock and S&W and Ruger have jumped up and down on trigger pull poundage trying to make everyone happy. I believe my gen 4 glock in 40 caliber has a 6.5 pound trigger (again if memory serves). I believe my Ruger P95 is a couple pounds higher but longer and smoother.
I believe the original New York (police) Trigger was 9 pounds. The police buyers are feeling around for a compromise between the revolver double action trigger and the cocked single action revolver trigger.
When I was in the Navy in 1960 a marine at the gate playing quick draw accidentally killed the marine coming to relieve him. The chamber of his pistol was supposed to be empty and he was supposed to not be playing with it.
After a police gunfight is over one must holster ones weapon at some point. Most European style decockers are loud and uncomfortable. Dropping an exposed hammer can be done quietly with practice. Pull the hammer back slightly with finger off the trigger. Push down the decocker levers and lower the hammer. But if one gets nervous there is a chance one could have excessive bump or pull on trigger before decocking and the slide will come back and bust your thumb. So you just push down the decocker and let the hammer slam down and watch everyone around you jump perhaps?
Lets talk excessive safeties. I have heard of police riot holsters with three locks to prevent someone getting control of your gun. So perhaps a couple thugs are stabbing you or shooting at you and you must first hit the thumb paddle safety on the holster while poking finger inside trigger guard and whatever else. Then you get the gun out and must push down the thumb safety on the gun.
A friend of a friend would approach cars with his clipboard under his left arm and left hand in jacket pocket on his pocket mauser already pointed at them.
A minority officer who was interviewed walking home in New York clearly stated "in my neighborhood you do not have time to draw, so you take your pistol out of the holster and put it in your coat pocket.
(this is getting too long - bye)
Well, let me test my memory. At one time I was well read on this subject.
To the question about why some have external safeties and some do not -- the professional answer is:
"there is a market for pistols with external safeties and a market for pistols with no external safeties.
The glock style trigger safety and the S&W trigger hinge safety are both primarily anti drop safeties. When someone drops the pistol the inertia generated when it hit's the ground will not move the trigger bar inside the pistol.
The old 1911 .45 auto workhorse was perfect for two world wars. In the 1960s (as they were gearing up for the series 70?) I read a well written article. The writer claimed (and I believe) that the inertia firing pin can not fire a cartridge unless dropped from a building about ten stories high onto cement with it landing perfectly on the muzzle. Assuming the force did not push the slide back enough to activate the original out of battery slide lock.
I have not looked closely at the new 1911 style 45 autos but the inertia firing pin does not reach from hammer to primer at the same time on any I have seen. It must travel forward of its own inertia to pop the primer. If you have time some day take a tongue depressor or similar wood and push down a 1911 45 firing pin level with the keeper, then notice it is not sticking out the of the breach face. The safest way to carry a 1911 45 auto is hammer down with loaded chamber. Second safest no doubt is cocked with leather strap under hammer over firing pin. (People who have gun accidents can be creative in ways to blame the gun). (Therefore the suits in the front office that order guns for police and military love lots of safeties).
The S&W model 10 revolver we all loved probably had a 12 pound double action trigger pull and a 3 or 3.5 pound short crisp pull for accurate shooting. It was the perfect police handgun like the 45 auto was the perfect military handgun.
When the big city drug gangs got more and more firepower the police had to keep up. When Glock first came out with a polymer frame, striker fired, half cocked gun with high capacity magazine it was wonderful. I believe my first Glock 17 has a 3.5 pound trigger. Apparently many accidents happened when they were shoved in behind a belt with no holster and also with the overly flexible inside the belt holsters. A few accidents happened when officers crammed their gun in holster after an incident with finger still on the trigger. And many more.
Anyway it seems to me that Glock and S&W and Ruger have jumped up and down on trigger pull poundage trying to make everyone happy. I believe my gen 4 glock in 40 caliber has a 6.5 pound trigger (again if memory serves). I believe my Ruger P95 is a couple pounds higher but longer and smoother.
I believe the original New York (police) Trigger was 9 pounds. The police buyers are feeling around for a compromise between the revolver double action trigger and the cocked single action revolver trigger.
When I was in the Navy in 1960 a marine at the gate playing quick draw accidentally killed the marine coming to relieve him. The chamber of his pistol was supposed to be empty and he was supposed to not be playing with it.
After a police gunfight is over one must holster ones weapon at some point. Most European style decockers are loud and uncomfortable. Dropping an exposed hammer can be done quietly with practice. Pull the hammer back slightly with finger off the trigger. Push down the decocker levers and lower the hammer. But if one gets nervous there is a chance one could have excessive bump or pull on trigger before decocking and the slide will come back and bust your thumb. So you just push down the decocker and let the hammer slam down and watch everyone around you jump perhaps?
Lets talk excessive safeties. I have heard of police riot holsters with three locks to prevent someone getting control of your gun. So perhaps a couple thugs are stabbing you or shooting at you and you must first hit the thumb paddle safety on the holster while poking finger inside trigger guard and whatever else. Then you get the gun out and must push down the thumb safety on the gun.
A friend of a friend would approach cars with his clipboard under his left arm and left hand in jacket pocket on his pocket mauser already pointed at them.
A minority officer who was interviewed walking home in New York clearly stated "in my neighborhood you do not have time to draw, so you take your pistol out of the holster and put it in your coat pocket.
(this is getting too long - bye)
badjuijui
Member
I don't know much about a handgun safety since I carry a weapon that does not have one, but this much I have ascertained:
People that don't like threads like this one sure do love chiming in on them.
People that don't like threads like this one sure do love chiming in on them.
Delos
Member
Agree to disagree
Good observation. But chiming in inspires others to give their opinions. And hopefully we get close to agreeing at the end.
Yes, perhaps the only question regarding the autos with no external safety is the trigger pull weight and often more important the holster.
In theory perhaps the handgun is not likely to have an accidental discharge in a good reasonably stiff holster. Particularly if the gun is in the holster when the holster is shoved inside the belt, or the type holster where part of the holster shoved inside the belt.
But then here we go again to the next step, about holstering a handgun after an incident. Your nerves are peaked and maybe your clothes a bit looser. Shirt tail more likely to be out, perhaps blocking the handgun from good entrance to holster. I assume nobody teaches this stuff in class but the classes are getting much better.
So it would seem pertinent to experiment with the highest trigger pull weight you can shoot well with at 15 or 20 yards. Then dress nice and do some toe touches and side bends. Roll around on a judo mat and at least look at your new belt line obstructions. If appropriate, try to holster your gun.
I think I just talked myself into buying my next one with an external safety and light trigger.
Good observation. But chiming in inspires others to give their opinions. And hopefully we get close to agreeing at the end.
Yes, perhaps the only question regarding the autos with no external safety is the trigger pull weight and often more important the holster.
In theory perhaps the handgun is not likely to have an accidental discharge in a good reasonably stiff holster. Particularly if the gun is in the holster when the holster is shoved inside the belt, or the type holster where part of the holster shoved inside the belt.
But then here we go again to the next step, about holstering a handgun after an incident. Your nerves are peaked and maybe your clothes a bit looser. Shirt tail more likely to be out, perhaps blocking the handgun from good entrance to holster. I assume nobody teaches this stuff in class but the classes are getting much better.
So it would seem pertinent to experiment with the highest trigger pull weight you can shoot well with at 15 or 20 yards. Then dress nice and do some toe touches and side bends. Roll around on a judo mat and at least look at your new belt line obstructions. If appropriate, try to holster your gun.
I think I just talked myself into buying my next one with an external safety and light trigger.
Delos
Member
Accidental discharge inside vehicle - holster
Here is some nice photo's of an accidental discharge inside a vehicle.
[CCW] Glock Holster Safety Issue! - Corvette Forum
Here is some nice photo's of an accidental discharge inside a vehicle.
[CCW] Glock Holster Safety Issue! - Corvette Forum
agksimon
Member
Why the M&P22 has a thumb safety is Smith's manufacturing base in the US wasn't tooled up fast enough to bring this pistol for immediate release, so they've settled for abiding by firearms import restrictions and incorporating the thumb safety.
Source: Smith and Wesson's M&P .22 Pistol - Half Cocked? | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns
Source: Smith and Wesson's M&P .22 Pistol - Half Cocked? | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns
Delos
Member
The Apples and Oranges about the article
This article, that is referred to, makes me very unhappy.
I do not yet own an M&P22. It is one on my long list. It appears to be the best training tool for the bigger M&P semi auto's that look like it and feel like it, and have external safeties. No doubt many police departments carry the M&P in 9 and 40 caliber and many are required to have the model with thumb safety.
However the M&P22 is not striker fired. There is a hammer in there. Search for it in Gunblast and look at the picture with slide off. The hammer is shown cocked and un-cocked.
Smith & Wesson M&P-22 Semi-Automatic 22 LR Pistol
Look at it in the Smith&Wesson corporation firearms website. It describes the M&P 22 as "single action".
Would you carry any cocked pistol without a safety? This is a really great buy unless you think there is a half cocked striker inside and can be carried the same way a striker fired half cocked pistol can be carried.
(I note that the gunblast site says "Hammer-block safety prevents the weapon from firing unless the trigger is pulled").
The article, and posts after the article compares it against the Ruger SR22. Different ball game. The SR22 has an exposed hammer and a decocker that can also be used as a safety. But if you use the decocker as an additional safety you must push it up with your thumb in order to fire a double action first shot. The SR22 is a good training tool for the departments or military units that carry the Ruger P95. (Although more than a little bit smaller than the P95).
This article, that is referred to, makes me very unhappy.
I do not yet own an M&P22. It is one on my long list. It appears to be the best training tool for the bigger M&P semi auto's that look like it and feel like it, and have external safeties. No doubt many police departments carry the M&P in 9 and 40 caliber and many are required to have the model with thumb safety.
However the M&P22 is not striker fired. There is a hammer in there. Search for it in Gunblast and look at the picture with slide off. The hammer is shown cocked and un-cocked.
Smith & Wesson M&P-22 Semi-Automatic 22 LR Pistol
Look at it in the Smith&Wesson corporation firearms website. It describes the M&P 22 as "single action".
Would you carry any cocked pistol without a safety? This is a really great buy unless you think there is a half cocked striker inside and can be carried the same way a striker fired half cocked pistol can be carried.
(I note that the gunblast site says "Hammer-block safety prevents the weapon from firing unless the trigger is pulled").
The article, and posts after the article compares it against the Ruger SR22. Different ball game. The SR22 has an exposed hammer and a decocker that can also be used as a safety. But if you use the decocker as an additional safety you must push it up with your thumb in order to fire a double action first shot. The SR22 is a good training tool for the departments or military units that carry the Ruger P95. (Although more than a little bit smaller than the P95).
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All the people that have shot themselves or someone else with a Glock; ask for it.
I agree wit Dave 686, I know several persons that have shot themselves with striker fired pistols. Besides you are not alone in The World, people have kids and wants an extra safety when un holster his/her gun, women carry them in their purse, some w/o a holster, some men carry Mexican style, pants got lose, you may lose your name. In ideal conditions, no need for a manual safety, as with revolvers; but if something can go wrong, it will go wrong, Murphys Law. Old "revolver shooters in PR have a saying, "pistols always carry a bullet for the owner" and styker firing pistols make it easier.
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