Victory data base

[rduke]

.38/200 S&W Pre-Victory for Database

Hi,
I would like to contribute to your database and share with others.

I have a .38/200 S&W SN#736774 with the letter P stamped on the butt

Mr Jinks has told me that this revolver was shipped in Feb of 1941. I do not have any other details other than that.

I would like to know about the arrow located on the top right of the receiver in the photo. Anybody? If anyone else has info/comments, please share.

I bought this with original ammo dating from about the 1950's

Rob

Edited:
The barrel shows wear, possible from being excessively holstered?

 

[DWalt]

Hi,
I would like to contribute to your database and share with others.

I have a .38/200 S&W SN#736774 with the letter P stamped on the butt

Mr Jinks has told me that this revolver was shipped in Feb of 1941. I do not have any other details other than that.

I would like to know about the arrow located on the top right of the receiver in the photo. Anybody? If anyone else has info/comments, please share.

I bought this with original ammo dating from about the 1950's

Rob

Edited:
The barrel shows wear, possible from being excessively holstered?

I can't add a great deal. From the SN, the 2/41 shipping date appears correct. The marking is likely the British Ordnance "Broad Arrow" stamping, indicating Crown ownership. It appears that there is a partial circle around the broad arrow. Other similar markings I have seen do not have a circle. Canadian guns have a broad arrow inside the letter C, but I don't think that is what this one is. Others may be able to better identify this specific broad arrow marking. In any event, it is a property marking.

There is likely no way to trace where yours went after it left the factory, as it could have ended up anywhere on the globe. A factory letter ($50) would provide the first location shipped, but even that could be misleading, as they were often sent elsewhere. The British shuffled their firearms around a great deal, according to where the need was greatest.

At this time, the .38/200 military order revolvers were finished identically as civilian revolvers, including a bright blue (Carbonia) metal finish and checkered wooden grips with medallions. During the time period when yours was made, S&W was producing very few guns aside from .38/200 revolvers for the British Commonwealth. Yours appears correct for the period, and was made prior to the Lend-Lease Act of 1941, so it was actually purchased for gold, or possibly as part of a "rebate" program, where S&W provided revolvers in lieu of a cash refund for a failed 9mm automatic carbine contract S&W had with the British.

Collectors call these revolvers "pre-Victories" as they were produced for foreign military use prior to the adoption of the V (for Victory) serial number prefix. Those Victory model revolvers started shipping about the middle of 1942. Hopefully, its chambers have not been bored to accept .38 Special ammunition. The .38 S&W cartridge was the official revolver cartridge adopted prior to WWII. There were two varieties, the .380 Revolver Mk1 and Mk2. The Mk1 used a 200 grain lead bullet. The Mk2 came later, and used a 178 grain FMJ bullet. This was to meet the requirements of the Hague Conventions which prohibited expanding bullets in warfare. You will find .380 Revolver ammunition made about everywhere in the British Empire. Those made in Great Britain, India, and South Africa are probably the most common. .38 S&W, .380 Mk1, and .380 Mk2 cartridges are interchangeable, but not strictly identical.

 

[Gpcooke]

DWalt, my apologies for misreading your response to my inquiries. The V Model I wrote about has NOT been bored for the .38 S&W Special cartridges, so is in original condition. I also checked the link that you sent to dalexan62 and discovered the meaning of the "p" that is on the barrel, cylinder and left sideplate of the revolver. That's a great site. I am still wondering about the E stamped on the bottom of the right grip. have you encountered that on any of the other database examples?

 

[RevolverDad]

Good morning,

Just joined to share some pictures and hopefully get some more info about my revolver. Seems like a very nice crowd here.

Anywho, my revolver has the serial number V617875.


Here's some details:

-Does not have original stocks, rather is wearing a set of 1950's faux stag grips.
-Has it's lanyard loop intact
-Barrel, cylinder, and frame all have matching serial numbers and are all stamped with a "V" and a "P"
-Barrel is stamped ".38 s.&w. special ctg"
-gun is chambered in .38 special.
-chambers and barrel have been safety checked by a gunsmith and look to be in near perfect condition. Safe to fire/use and all that.
-hammer and trigger have a case hardened finish.
-Left topstrap markings have been removed. My friend said that he got it like that and wasn't aware of what it might have said.

As for known history, i bought it from a Sheriff buddy who had it for a long time, 20+ years. He got it from a relative apparently, who was also a cop. As far as i know it was purchased in the 50's, but i'm not sure if it was a duty gun or just a personal weapon.


Thanks in advance for any additional info. Cheers!

 

[RevolverDad]

Another view.

 

[col.halftrack]

Ok,
I am a newbie so I hope this is not all old news. I recently acquired S&W V184774 4"bbl walnot grips, no US mrkgs found, serial matches to bbl, butt, and cylinder. It has a F8 over 28033 in the frame behind the cylinder shaft(visable when cylinder is swung out only). No sign of flaming bomb or any other inspector stamps just the typical bbl mrkgs.
1. What is the procedure for obtaining the factory letter? address, fee, info needed upon application, is there a pre-printed application?
2. Y/N - bbls mrkd 38 S&W Special ctg are for US forces not lend-lease and use standard load 38spec ammo.
3. What would be the approx ship date?
4. where on this site do you find the oft referred to database?
Thanks
Col. H

 

[VPNAVY]

Here is my little baby - it belonged to my Dad...

 

[ordnanceguy]

Anywho, my revolver has the serial number V617875.....Thanks in advance for any additional info. Cheers!

Hello RevolverDad:

Welcome to the Forum:

From the Victory Model Database, which my pal LWCmdr45 and I administer, I can tell you that your Victory likely shipped from the factory in the June, 1944 time frame. The removal of the left top strap markings dramatically affects the value of the revolver in a negative way. It is pretty much a shooter now. The removed markings were likely [Ord. Bomb] U.S. Property GHD.

I hope that information is helpful to you.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Col. Halftrack:

Welcome to the Forum.

You can find the form to download for a factory letter request on the site here at: http://smith-wessonforum.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=17

From your serial number the Victory Model Database indicates that your revolver likely shipped from the factory in the November-December, 1942 time frame.

I hope that information is helpful to you. If you do seek a factory letter I hope that when it arrives that you will post the results back here so we can all be informed.

The VM Database is not presently available online. However, my collaborator LWCmdr45 are happy to answer any questions you might have, as would many other members here.

 

[ordnanceguy]

VPNavy:

That is a very nice Victory, and especially so since it came to you through your dad. Thanks for posting the factory letter data.

 

[RevolverDad]

Hello RevolverDad:

Welcome to the Forum:

From the Victory Model Database, which my pal LWCmdr45 and I administer, I can tell you that your Victory likely shipped from the factory in the June, 1944 time frame. The removal of the left top strap markings dramatically affects the value of the revolver in a negative way. It is pretty much a shooter now. The removed markings were likely [Ord. Bomb] U.S. Property GHD.

I hope that information is helpful to you.

Thank you very much for the welcome and prompt reply! And yes, I thought as much would be true about the topstrap effecting the value negatively. I definitely paid a "friend price" with intent to simply have a nice hand ejector in my collection and as a companion to my ruger LCR. I'm a big fan of .38 special wheelguns, in general, but am just now starting to delve into ownership.

Would you or others see any reason not to carry/use this gun as i please? I don't know that i wouldn't put it to use as working gun even if the topstrap markings were intact. My kids are itching to take the new rig out for a spin and i'm thinking of getting a nice OWB carry rig for it. Maybe a "sourdough pancake" from simply rugged.

 

[RevolverDad]

Hello RevolverDad:

Welcome to the Forum:

From the Victory Model Database, which my pal LWCmdr45 and I administer, I can tell you that your Victory likely shipped from the factory in the June, 1944 time frame. The removal of the left top strap markings dramatically affects the value of the revolver in a negative way. It is pretty much a shooter now. The removed markings were likely [Ord. Bomb] U.S. Property GHD.

I hope that information is helpful to you.

One other question comes to mind,actually. So if my serial number dates to around June 1944 - that was the month that the Normandy landings started.
IF my gun was part of an order to supply US troops, where might it have likely been utilized? Air crew? MP? It's my understanding that officers who were issued sidearms were issued 1911's rather than revolvers, correct?

Would a letter from s&w be able to clarify that detail? I know some revolvers were tasked with stateside duty at factories, etc, but its my understanding that those did not have topstrap markings. Is that accurate to say?

Again, thanks!

 

[col.halftrack]

Col. Halftrack:

the form to download for a factory letter request on the site here at: http://smith-wessonforum.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=17
The link is unauthorized? Can you provide another open link for the form?


I hope that information is helpful to you. If you do seek a factory letter I hope that when it arrives that you will post the results back here so we can all be informed.
/QUOTE]
Will do on the letter.
Is the 38 S&W Special Ctg considered for US use and the 38 S&W Ctg a lend-lease weapon?

 

[ordnanceguy]

One other question comes to mind,actually.
IF my gun was part of an order to supply US troops, where might it have likely been utilized? Air crew? MP? It's my understanding that officers who were issued sidearms were issued 1911's rather than revolvers, correct?

Would a letter from s&w be able to clarify that detail? I know some revolvers were tasked with stateside duty at factories, etc, but its my understanding that those did not have topstrap markings. Is that accurate to say?

Again, thanks!

RD:

Speaking generally, for Victory Models purchased for the US military during WW2 the great bulk of them were shipped to the US Navy. In WW2 Navy use the Victory was most often seen as an aircrew weapon, for Shore Patrol and in other security positions.

A factory letter will tell you the exact date it was shipped, the shipping destination and will provide confirmation of the features of the gun when shipped. There is also some useful, general background info provided as well. The factory has no way of knowing where any particular weapon went after it was shipped to its original destination, so understandably the factory historian cannot provide that information.

It is true that Victories shipped under DSC authorization to civilian destinations did not have left top strap markings.

I hope that additional info answers your questions.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Is the 38 S&W Special Ctg considered for US use and the 38 S&W Ctg a lend-lease weapon?

Colonel:

While there were exceptions, yes, as a general proposition the .38 Special Victory Models were shipped to US military and US civilian destinations and the .38 S&W guns were Lend Lease guns intended for shipment to the UK and Commonwealth nations.

 

[RevolverDad]

RD:

Speaking generally, for Victory Models purchased for the US military during WW2 the great bulk of them were shipped to the US Navy. In WW2 Navy use the Victory was most often seen as an aircrew weapon, for Shore Patrol and in other security positions.

A factory letter will tell you the exact date it was shipped, the shipping destination and will provide confirmation of the features of the gun when shipped. There is also some useful, general background info provided as well. The factory has no way of knowing where any particular weapon went after it was shipped to its original destination, so understandably the factory historian cannot provide that information.

It is true that Victories shipped under DSC authorization to civilian destinations did not have left top strap markings.

I hope that additional info answers your questions.

Yes, thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to answer. I think i'll definitely be requesting my letter from Smith and Wesson, if only to calm my own curiosity.

 

[col.halftrack]

Thanks for the great info. One more time is there a link or where can I find info regarding a letter to Smith & Wesson c/o Jinks

 

[ordnanceguy]

Colonel:

Sorry that the link did not work for you. Try this: Go to the top of this page and look for the "Downloads" tab. Click on that. In the new page that opens look at the left side of the page under "Most Popular Downloads". There you will see listed the form entitled "Factory Letter Request Form" which is used to request a factory letter. Click on that and download the form. Fill it out and send it in with your check for $50. Good luck.

 

[rbsharer]

Date of Manufacture Request

My Victory pistol is SN V147895. The numbers match as originally assembled. Can you tell me what date it was built? Also, from reading many sources, it appears that not all Navy used pistols were marked Navy. Can you confirm this? Thank you for any assistance. Regards, Robert

 

[DWalt]

My Victory pistol is SN V147895. The numbers match as originally assembled. Can you tell me what date it was built? Also, from reading many sources, it appears that not all Navy used pistols were marked Navy. Can you confirm this? Thank you for any assistance. Regards, Robert

Victories with nearby serial numbers to yours are known to have been shipped in November 1942, but a factory letter would be required to get an exact shipping date.

Early revolvers (both pre-Victory and Victory) made for the Navy carried a "U. S. NAVY" stamping on the topstrap. That stopped at about SN V 267000. Thereafter, Victories shipped to the Navy carried typical "United States Property" or "U. S. Property" topstrap stampings, and a factory letter would be required to determine if a specific Victory above V267xxx was shipped to the Navy. It's generally accepted that the majority of Victory revolvers chambered in .38 Special went to the U. S. Navy, whether Navy-marked or not.