M&P Value Series

[shawn mccarver]

Ruger has recently introduced the replacement for its polymer P95 pistol. The Ruger 9E is the "Essentials" version of the Ruger SR9. It is about $100.00 less expensive and uses a basic black oxide finish instead of the black nitride finish, and it has the view port loaded chamber indicator, fixed 3-dot sights, and comes with one magazine in a cardboard box. Other than the minor changes, it is the same as Ruger's premium model, the SR9.

I wish S&W should make a "Value" version of the M&P 9 Full Size. Since the slide is stainless anyway, the melonite finish could be replaced with a basic black finish of some sort, and the price reduced substantially. In addition, they could do away with the grip inserts just as they have on the Shield. It would make a nice companion to the Shield. I would like to see a "Value" M&P in the same price range as the Shield.

 

[shawnfergie]

Just buy a SD9VE. I have the Sigma 9mm, other than the trigger it has performed flawlessly. Paid $275 for it back in 2009 and still like it.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I prefer the trigger of the M&P by far, and I would prefer a "Value" option which uses the same magazine as the M&P. Thank you for the suggestion, however.

 

[Jiman]

For a plastic gun, there isn't a whole of "cost" cutting to be had.

M&Ps direct market challenge is Glock right? So what are they doing? And if S&W creates a value line where does it fit in and how much of a value is it really. Does it change the demographics to whose gonna buy it.

I remember getting guns when they all came with 3 mags...not as some special deal. Now it's down to 2. The 3 backstrap choices is nice but for a single shooter once you decide you almost never use the other two.

My concern about the finish is that it's soo good that if you replace it with something cheaper/inferior it might be more headache than its worth for their CS to fix, repair, re finish complaints.

 

[HeavyDuty Ken]

I don't see S&W cheapening the M&P brand by releasing a value model. But, who knows.

 

[M&Pmeister]

Most of the M&P's are already much better values compared to Glocks, XDs, etc. I got my 40c a few years back for less than $400, with a rebate for 2 additional mags. I just picked up a 40FS for right at $400. The Austrians and Croatians would have been considerably more expensive.

And, yes, S&W's value polymer line is the Sigma. Isn't that what was sold to the Iraqi armed forces?

 

[mafbloggerdanny]

Most of the M&P's are already much better values compared to Glocks, XDs, etc. I got my 40c a few years back for less than $400, with a rebate for 2 additional mags. I just picked up a 40FS for right at $400. The Austrians and Croatians would have been considerably more expensive.

And, yes, S&W's value polymer line is the Sigma. Isn't that what was sold to the Iraqi armed forces?

According to this report the Iraqis bought the M&P 9, not the SD9VE

Investors - Press Releases - Smith & Wesson

S&W M&P9 Chosen for the "Sandbox"

In regards to what you said about sigma vs Glock, one popular Youtube guy actually liked his SD40VE better than Glock, taking into account the price. The biggest advantage Glock has is the huge aftermarket parts/accessories availability.

EDIT - Added youtube vid: http://youtu.be/REDBk1413ks

But yeah for a budget gun the SD9VE and SD40VE offer a lot of gun for less than 300 bucks!

 

[ca survivor]

you all know that the SD line is nothing but a Sigma...and one guy liked in the vid, WOW !!!

 

[M&Pmeister]

mafbloggerdanny, thanks for the links. I vaguely remember yrs ago reading about the Iraqis getting S&W polymer pistols. Wasn't quite sure which it was.

Personally, I would rather spend a few more clams and get an M&P instead of the SD-VE. Even though M&P aftermarket is still no match for the mighty Glock, LE/military issues and increasing civilian popularity means M&P aftermarket is growing quite well and better than SD-VE.

 

[S&W Rover]

"In addition to the M&P9s currently used in Iraq, Smith & Wesson firearms have also been used in active duty for the last two years with several security forces in Afghanistan including the Afghanistan National Army and Border Patrol as well as the Afghanistan National Police. To date, over 80,000 Smith & Wesson firearms are currently being used in these two countries."

Those 80,000+ handguns were S&W SD9VE...

I've got a SD9... it is a well-made, reliable pistol... the biggest complaint is the long, rather heavy trigger pull. It is a great self-defense pistol and a good "truck gun" or primary home defense weapon for someone on a budget. I've seen them as low as $275, new. I think it fits the niche the OP has identified -- a less-expensive S&W Polymer pistol. Its presence in that niche makes it unlikely S&W will make a "value line" M&P. (The original S&W "value line" autos were made back in the day when Glock was killing S&W's Series III metal guns in the market... so S&W took out a few steps in the finishing process and saved a few bucks and created the "value line," e.g., the S&W Mdl 915. I think Kahr does something like that today with its CW and CT models. Interesting idea, and not a bad one, but not likely with M&Ps today...)

 

[M&Pmeister]

so S&W took out a few steps in the finishing process and saved a few bucks and created the "value line," e.g., the S&W Mdl 915. I think Kahr does something like that today with its CW and CT models. Interesting idea, and not a bad one, but not likely with M&Ps today...)

Kahr took out a few steps on the CW alright. I bought a CW40, not realizing the slide rode on plastic rails only. No metal tabs at all. I took it to one range session and there were all kinds of plastic shaving as I was cleaning it that evening. Plus that pistol kick way harder than any other .40 I've shot, and the grip texture made it worse. Sold it a few week later.

In Kahr's case, I would say that cost cutting went a bit too far.

 

[shawn mccarver]

M&Ps direct market challenge is Glock right? So what are they doing? And if S&W creates a value line where does it fit in and how much of a value is it really.

The M&P does indeed compete with the Glock and other premium firearms. With Ruger's introduction of its 9E, which is SR9 with a standard type of oxide finish, simpler to machine slide grasping grooves, fixed sights, a view port loaded chamber indicator, one magazine, and some other changes, they were able to drop the dealer price about $100.00 to the same level as the dealer price point as the SD9VE. My concern is that most shooters prefer the Glock-like trigger, and the Ruger 9E will give the SD9VE a serious challenge.

My idea is a similar treatment to the M&P to either supplement or replace the SDVE Series. I, for one, would prefer a basic M&P for the same price as the SDVE Series. By basic M&P, I am referring to simpler machining on the slide (less machine time), a standard bead blast finish instead of melonite, different sights, Shield type grip without the interchangeable back straps, cardboard box like the Shield, etc.

I am not suggesting such a pistol would replace the premium M&P. It would offer the advantage of the M&P trigger and operating system at the SDVE price point. All sorts of people like a pistol at that price point for home defense, as a "truck gun" or whatever, or simply to be more affordable, while retaining the reliable and durable guts of the M&P action. And, Glock does not have a pistol in that price point.

Just an idea and to generate discussion!

 

[Llando88]

I thought the M&P was S&W's value pistol.

 

[M&Pmeister]

Glock and Springfield XD never had "value" lines, and probably never will. I'd say S&W worked very hard to build up the M&P brand to compete - and in some cases - surpass the likes of Glock. Last thing they should do is cheapen the brand imagine with an "economy" class.

Ruger doesn't seem to have the same ambitions. Any LE/military using their SRs? I doubt S&W cares too much about losing customers to Ruger. They are after Glocks market share and so far doing quite well.

 

[Rastoff]

The M&P does indeed compete with the Glock and other premium firearms.

I guess we have different ideas of what a "premium" firearm is. I see the M&P as a no frills, bare bones, work gun. All go and very little show. I just don't see the room for cost cutting that you do.

The Melonite finish is one thing that draws me to the M&P. Drop that, and I'll buy a Glock. Sure, they could drop the interchangeable grip, but what will it save them? The molds are already made so, they'd have to make more molds for the new style. They didn't put that feature on the Shield because they didn't have room.

The Melonite on the slide, interchangeable grip, and extra magazine combined probably cost S&W less than $50 per gun. Even if they were to drop those features, the price probably wouldn't drop $100.

Yes, they could drop some machining on the slide. Again, how much will it save?

I don't know, I just don't see it. Honestly, there aren't any cheaper guns out there that I want. The M&P is pretty inexpensive as it is. Honestly, if there were a less expensive version, I'd probably save up the extra money to get it as it is now.

 

[Jiman]

My definition would be along the lines, of functional reliability, durability, workmanship, etc… and my guess is Shawn is speaking of Sig, H&K, XD, etc… as the ‘other’ guns.



I’m with Rastoff though, in that compared especially to Sig and H&K, an M&P is a steal. IMO, it’d be very hard to do any less and be competitive to those other guns…assuming you think there is an equal comparison to begin with.



I have no opinion either way because I don’t have enough trigger time with the M&P compared to the others.



I can tell you anecdotally that I’ve been issued 3 Sig 229s so far in about 12 yrs and I don’t care for the 229.



They all have shown cracks in the frame. I have also inspected @300 other issued guns and regularly find them with frame cracks. My current issue is the worst example so far with less than 3k fired and a few yrs old. To be fair there is so much rail surface on Sigs that malfunctions don’t happen as often as you’d think. And frankly it’s issued so as long as it goes bang, I’m good. But if I paid the almost $800-900 these things go for, I’d be pissed. In case anyone is wondering it is an all Exeter gun. There were still issues with the German ones, but not as significant.



Here’s the almost 1” crack in the frame (Look at the right inside of frame).

 

[BlackTalonJHP]

Solution:
Re-engineer the SD9 to use the M&P trigger/striker mechanism.

I think the biggest negative people have against the SD9 is the trigger. I personally love the SD9 size (thinner slide, etc) for 9mm vs the M&P9 (which was designed around the .40S&W cartridge and was release in that chambering first). M&P magazines are also slightly wider than 59 series, Beretta 92, SIG P226, etc. I also wish that SD9 mags were $25 like M&P mags are.

The specs of the new Value Model should be
-Polymer frame with no interchangeable grips/backstraps and consistent texturing (not sure why the SD has different patterns) and get rid of the index finger memory pads above the trigger. Although once the mold is made that cost is sunk.
-M&P type trigger/striker mechanism
-15/16/17 round magazine (9mm) compatible with either M&P or SD/SW series
-4 or 4.25 inch bare stainless steel button or cut rifled barrel with NO chamber window (yes, I said NO)
-SD9 1 inch slide width (CNC machined)
-Simple slide serrations a la SD9VE (I like the SD9 slide serrations at least as well as the M&P scale serrations)
-Satin stainless or black oxide slide (although the Melonite SD9 is nice, it added too much cost, as did the night sight)
-Polymer rear sight that used the same size dovetail as M&P (as the SD9 does) (I put an M&P steel rear sight on my SD9VE for $15)
-Steel front side from M&P, a la SD9VE (little cost)
-Non ambidextrous controls
-MIL STD 1913 rail
-All other small parts will be MIM or poymer as with the SD9VE (I don't have any problems with either M&P or SD series mag release, slide stop, etc)
-Ships in cardboard box
-Ships with one or two mags, not really a big deal as that is easily changed
-MSRP maybe $25 or so more than the SD9VE

IMHO they shouldn't use the M&P moniker for this firearm. They could call it the SD9A1, SV9, or SE9. I'll leave that for the marketing dept.

I can't tell you how many times I've said SD9 and people think I'm talking about/saying XD9 (Springfield Armory)

SR9 is taken. As are ST9, CCP9, VP9, TP9(x2), P9, PM9, SW9, SP89, P88, P89, P99, XD9, P-09, M9(x2), C9, L9, S9, BP9, BU9, XR9, LC9, R9,
K9(x2), W-9, I-9. Okay maybe those last two are .gov forms.

Just don't call it the Bodyguard 9. Seriously, don't.

 

[45tex]

With the VE series sw has the cheaper line. I have both and like them equally.

 

[ScrapmasterFlex]

That magazine comment was dead-on... Now you have to get a special package to get a third magazine- my newer Sig P226 MK25 is advertised as being specialspecial with the THREE magazines lol. But hey I like that, it's like $35 bucks right there boy! When I bought the MK25 I had a monthlong battle in my head between the MK25 or a Springfield Armory 1911 Loaded Stainless ... and I admit I probably WANTED the SA 1911 more but the MK25 made a lot more sense on several counts ... and I remember they were showing how the SA guns come with a "package" - you get a paddle holster, plus a 2 magazine carrier, but only two mags lol. They can't even include the third magazine so you can carry the gun plus the two spare mags. Just a lot of lolwut in my humblest opinion.


For a split second when I was opening the box of my M&P 22 Compact Sunday, when I got home from the gunshow, I thought I got 3 magazines, and I was all like "OH YEAH BABY>.....oh wait... it's only the two.. oh..."

Smith & Wesson sort of HAS a value line, it's the SDVE or whatever they call it. Might not be a real less-expensive M&P but it's pretty much their value line.

 

[BlackTalonJHP]

You'd have to wait about nine months or so, but I think this is probably the only way to get a value series M&P.

and for a serious picture