The FBI Affect

What's all this talk about the FBI and the cartridge they use. It's my understanding that 85% of them are desk jockeys. Fed agents hardly ever get shot or even shot at. State police, county sheriffs and metro police are the one's who get shot. Last known fatality was a PA trooper a few days ago.

Can anyone remember when the last FBI agent was actually shot by a criminal? Looks like about 1992. Give me a break.
 
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Most of the agencies in the metro Denver area have an approved list of caliber/weapon the individual can choose from. Yesterday a friend of mine that's a sgt. with the Aurora PD mentioned that many of the new and quite a few of the long time officers are transitioning to the 9.

Without getting into a caliber debate there's no denying 9mm has improved greatly in the last 20 years. There's a boat load of dead Europeans and Middle Easteners due to the "lowly" 9.
 
As I remember, only 3 of the agents at the Miami shootout had 9mm pistols the rest were armed with 38/357 revolvers.

I attended a presentation on the review of the shootout in 1987 and they were still debating what to do about it. My take-away from the review was 1)they needed the high capacity of semi-autos and 2)a shotgun in the trunk doesn't do any good.
 
A few years ago the American Rifleman published an article that showcased all the hand guns used by the FBI since it's inception and it was a VERY LONG list! It seems that they change handguns quite often and never seem to keep one particular model more than a few years.
 
What's all this talk about the FBI and the cartridge they use. It's my understanding that 85% of them are desk jockeys. Fed agents hardly ever get shot or even shot at. State police, county sheriffs and metro police are the one's who get shot. Last known fatality was a PA trooper a few days ago.

Can anyone remember when the last FBI agent was actually shot by a criminal? Looks like about 1992. Give me a break.

Shot by a criminal or shooting AT criminal?

If it's a fed shooting AT a criminal, it was last summer in ABQ when he was about to be run down.
 
What's all this talk about the FBI and the cartridge they use. It's my understanding that 85% of them are desk jockeys. Fed agents hardly ever get shot or even shot at. State police, county sheriffs and metro police are the one's who get shot. Last known fatality was a PA trooper a few days ago.

Can anyone remember when the last FBI agent was actually shot by a criminal? Looks like about 1992. Give me a break.


A little off base with your "facts" Lost...

Between 1993 and early 2011, the FBI was involved in 150 shootings with suspects. 70 were fatal, and 80 wounded. Not sure how many agents were killed or wounded, but the low number of agents hurt / killed is a testament to training and proper weapon use. A little more dangerous than getting you finger caught in a desk drawer....

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/us/in-150-shootings-the-fbi-deemed-agents-faultless.html

Larry
 
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It's not about when/ how often/ how effectivly actual FBI Agents use their weapons. The FBI spreads their firearms doctrines / training protocols far and wide thru their Nat'l Academy for mid to upper ranking state/ local LEOs .

My take on the current situation is that at present there is no dominate cal or gun for LE service/ issue. We have more variety now than at any time since Teddy Roosevelt issued the first PD standard handguns. During the revolver era issued guns were Colt or S&W ( later Ruger or S&W ) in .38/ .357/ .357guns using .38 ammo.

After the initial 9mm mania , it never went away even when .40 edged into majority. Now 9mm and .40 are closing to equal , and .357Sig and .45 have signifigent minority positions.( 10mm came and went. .45GAP is liked where it is used , but doesn't seem to be spreading any farther). Fired from S&W , Glock , Berretta , SIG , H&K, probably a few grandfathered Rugers. Several models of each make. Several different operating systems.

Viva la difference.

[FWIW , I've never taken to .40 , having already been quite comfortable with both 9mm and .45acp before the .40 was invented. ]
 
Caliber doesn't seem to matter if you hit the target in the proper location . Just my experience.

Like the man said, the German Police were carrying .32 acp Walther PP and PPKs well into the 1970s. They only switched to 9mm when terrorism reared it's ugly head. Placement is the key and it's very easy to get good hits with a .32. The graveyards of Europe are full of criminals killed by police with 32s.
 
Has anyone given though to reinvigorating the venerable 38/44 cartridge? IIRC, that was designed to penetrate auto bodies (much thicker metal in those days) followed by soft tissue. What more is needed?

Same with .38 Super...another very good cartridge.
 
I've read recently that the military is looking to replace their 9mm with something a little more potent. Too many complaints about terminal performance apparently.
Haven't heard any more yet, but the caliber wars are alive and well!

I wish they would go back to using .45s.
 
The M&P, in any caliber, is not now (nor has ever been) approved for FBI carry, either as an issued gun or a POW.

oops,I think I left out somehting.what I meant was just the local CCPD switched over-but I dont know if the other agencies did or not? Ill find out late Oct when I start seeing those I now at the next gun show.:-))
 
I have a friend, retired LEO from a local suburban department. Unlike most cops, he actually was in a couple of gun fights over the course of his career. He had no problem with 9mm as far as its ability to stop a man. His complaint was that it wasn't good enough at penetrating hard cover, and that .40 made a difference in that regard.

Take that with a grain of salt, if you like, because by the time you read this it's third-hand, and I'm just passing on what was told to me.

Ive head somehting similar. One of the things ive hear also--were that 9mm wasnt liked because:"It bounced off skulls" kind of thing.
 
What's all this talk about the FBI and the cartridge they use. It's my understanding that 85% of them are desk jockeys. Fed agents hardly ever get shot or even shot at. State police, county sheriffs and metro police are the one's who get shot. Last known fatality was a PA trooper a few days ago.

Can anyone remember when the last FBI agent was actually shot by a criminal? Looks like about 1992. Give me a break.

Since 1992 we have lost 12 agents. The most recent adversarial loss was an agent being shot in the head while serving an arrest warrant as part of a Task Force. Please refrain from posting when you don't have accurate information.
 
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Re : #31 & #32

We have had a reinvigorated .38/44 for 79 years and counting, it's called the .357 Magnum.

The .38 Super had interesting ballistics back in the day, albeit w/o a suitable bullet design. The last pistol in .38 Super to make a semi- serious try for the LE market was the Browning BDA/ Sig P220. But at this stage has several major strikes against it :

1. The only semi major ammo mfg that loads it to its historic potential is CorBon. If an 800lb gorilla agency would put it out for bid , it would drive the marketplace to create loads to their spec. Meanwhile small to medimum depts would be leary of single source ammo.

2. The length of the ctg requires a frame length similar to that of a .45acp.

3. The performance niche is already filled by the .357Sig , and to an extent +P+ 9mm .
 
LE agencies using 9mm

Dane County WI issued Glock 17s and the 21. I've heard second hand that they now issue only the 17.
The UW department, a division of the WI State Police, issue the 19 or 17.
The Madison WI PD issues the Glock 19 or 17, but allows officers to carry their self-purchased 22 or 21. Weapon-mounted lights have been a serious issue, causing malfunctions with the 22. I hear, second hand, that if a weapons light is used, it can't be on the 22 due to malfunctions.
I have an ancient 22 and an equally ancient 21, no rails. They are rock solid reliable.

One of our sons is a LEO, issued, I think, Winchester Silver Tip 9mm ammo. He says he does not feel under-gunned. However, he does have an AR in the trunk . . ..

In the '80s, 9mm ammo was generally considered not as effective as larger calibers. My employer issued the Sig 228 and 226 and, later, the 229/357Sig, sometimes the 220/.45ACP. When the 357Sig ammo became available, it offered a provable improvement over 9mm and even .45ACP. I took to it right away, and was issued one of the first 229s to come into the country. I liked it so much I bought my own. I also wrote Sig telling them they should make the 226 in 357Sig. That didn't happen until I no longer cared, and 9mm ammo, in my opinion, has caught up with anything the 357Sig offered except a flatter trajectory and better terminal performance at distance. I don't really need either any more, though I still carry the 357Sig because I shoot it well.

When I run out of 357Sig ammo - about 10,000 rounds left, I'll probably go to the M&P 9mm.
 
Considering Max's account of the FBI Miami shootout, I remember when a L.A. sheriff deputy took a .44 Magnum to her aorta. She survived to shoot back and to medically retire. There are on magic calibers.
 
What's all this talk about the FBI and the cartridge they use. It's my understanding that 85% of them are desk jockeys. Fed agents hardly ever get shot or even shot at. State police, county sheriffs and metro police are the one's who get shot. Last known fatality was a PA trooper a few days ago.

Can anyone remember when the last FBI agent was actually shot by a criminal? Looks like about 1992. Give me a break.


The FBI was involved in a shoot out in Richmond Illinois either late last year or early this year (cant remember which) when they tried to arrest a bank robbery crew. Just sayin.
 
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