Best Sight for Short Distance?

[hstrawn]

$30 is $30. That much closer to a high quality red dot, ammo or whatever.

OK, so I'm forced into honesty here. I am actually NOT the original buyer of this Dollar Store (wish we still had dime stores) red AND green dot plus three other sight picture optic. I ripped it off from my former son-in-law so my cost is $0; but would purchase another if/when necessary.

 

[cyphertext]

OK, so I'm forced into honesty here. I am actually NOT the original buyer of this Dollar Store (wish we still had dime stores) red AND green dot plus three other sight picture optic. I ripped it off from my former son-in-law so my cost is $0; but would purchase another if/when necessary.

Have you ever used a higher quality red dot? Do you have a point of reference that you are comparing it to?

 

[cyphertext]

The same argument is made against the Sport by high dollar AR owners. Would you trust your life to an entry level AR?

Apples and oranges comparison. The Sport is lower cost than other rifles due to less features. But the areas where the cost savings come from are not going to affect the operation of the rifle. A lack of a dust cover, no heat shields in the handguard, a semi auto bolt carrier, etc., are not going to keep the rifle from firing or working properly.

However, a lower cost optic is not the same. Battery life is typically lower. Clarity of the optic is not as good as the higher priced models. Ability to hold zero, or return to zero is not as reliable. And most of these low cost optics are feature rich at a lower price point!

Here is food for thought. Go ask Marshall Lerner, CEO of Primary Arms, for his opinion on using a Primary Optics red dot on a duty rifle, or self defense rifle. He will advise that his optics are for recreational use, not something to stake your life on.

 

[lunger]

Apples and oranges comparison. The Sport is lower cost than other rifles due to less features. But the areas where the cost savings come from are not going to affect the operation of the rifle. A lack of a dust cover, no heat shields in the handguard, a semi auto bolt carrier, etc., are not going to keep the rifle from firing or working properly.

However, a lower cost optic is not the same. Battery life is typically lower. Clarity of the optic is not as good as the higher priced models. Ability to hold zero, or return to zero is not as reliable. And most of these low cost optics are feature rich at a lower price point!

Here is food for thought. Go ask Marshall Lerner, CEO of Primary Arms, for his opinion on using a Primary Optics red dot on a duty rifle, or self defense rifle. He will advise that his optics are for recreational use, not something to stake your life on.

I agree on a duty rifle nothing but high end.But the vast majority of AR owners will never see duty.Most also have back up irons in the event of a failure.

As for the CEO comments, I wonder if legal liability influences his remarks.

More food for thought. Has there ever been one documented case where a civilian has been injured or killed because his red dot failed.

 

[cyphertext]

I agree on a duty rifle nothing but high end.But the vast majority of AR owners will never see duty.Most also have back up irons in the event of a failure.

As for the CEO comments, I wonder if legal liability influences his remarks.

More food for thought. Has there ever been one documented case where a civilian has been injured or killed because his red dot failed.

I've never seen the CEO of Aimpoint say that their optics are for recreational use only.

While most AR owners do have back up sights, the majority of them do not practice with them... either deploying them under pressure or shooting with them. If you are depending upon that optic for self defense, it needs to be reliable.

I don't know of a civilian being injured or killed, but I can personally speak to missed opportunities on hunts due to less expensive optics failing. If they are not reliable enough for me to hunt with them, should I trust that they will always work for defensive purposes? My ARs wear cheap optics... but my ARs are for sporting purposes, not defensive purposes. If I ever decide that my AR is going to replace my shotgun for home defense, I will upgrade the optic.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

BUIS... that's what they are called but I trust my Aimpoint a zillion times more than my folding sights. I've read demonstrations of metal folding sights bent and rendered useless after a simple drop, and I've read at least one or more reports here of MBUS not surviving a simple drop from a bench at the range. In this report the MBUS actually held up better than metal. Back Up Iron Sight Drop Test – Kit Up!

A duty worthy red dot optic means to me one that is at the ready at all times and best suited to survive simple abuse... drops, slams against objects, submerged in a creek.. on and on. You don't have to be an operator in Afghanistan to understand the worthiness of an optic designed, built and tested that best survives abuse in any number of scenarios.

 

[C J]

I have a box full of those $30 red dots around somewhere. People used to give them to me because they didn't really use them. I wonder why? I wonder why I don't use them? Could it be because they are junk you can't see through much less aim with? That's probably it. I'd offer to give them away but I have learned we aren't supposed to do that in this forum. Plus it would mean digging through other boxes just to find that stuff. It's not worth the hassle for me or anyone who might want one.

I didn't buy an Aimpoint. But I didn't buy an el cheapo brand either. They are worse than useless IMO. At least I can see through mine. And BTW my primary defense weapons have all had iron sights for my entire life. Anything can be knocked out of kilter but I like my chances with metal. Almost every situation I can forsee needing a defensive weapon is going to be CQB where sights really aren't that useful. Point shooting is a skill we should all learn. That's probably the big biggest reason I didn't worry about spending as much on a sight as I did my rifle. I've done that before many times BTW. But if you're outside shooting bad guys that are far enough away that you really need a good sight then the most expensive thing you will need is a good lawyer. YMMV.

I have my accurate shooters. I do count on my AR for defense but it will be used almost entirely as a point shooting weapon. If you can't do that I suggest you learn. It's important IMO.

 

[hstrawn]

Have you ever used a higher quality red dot? Do you have a point of reference that you are comparing it to?

Nope....I'd be afraid to. I know what would happen. Like my Mom would have characterized me in this situation: "Dumb and Happy"

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I didn't buy an Aimpoint. But I didn't buy an el cheapo brand either. They are worse than useless IMO. At least I can see through mine. And BTW my primary defense weapons have all had iron sights for my entire life. Anything can be knocked out of kilter but I like my chances with metal. Almost every situation I can forsee needing a defensive weapon is going to be CQB where sights really aren't that useful. Point shooting is a skill we should all learn. That's probably the big biggest reason I didn't worry about spending as much on a sight as I did my rifle. I've done that before many times BTW. But if you're outside shooting bad guys that are far enough away that you really need a good sight then the most expensive thing you will need is a good lawyer. YMMV.

The OP specifically said an optic for "SHTF" if that would ever to happen.

I'm curious what you guys think SHTF means. Air conditioner not working well on a hot summer day at the indoor range?

To me, it means a time without rule of law, when police, military, etc have lost control. A time when lawyers nor an optic's warranty will be of much use. Choose wisely.

 

[blues7]

If money is no object then I would step up to a T2 with the LaRue mount of choice. They sell them in packages and run IIRC $750 to $800 depending on the mount.

With all gear intended for SHTF scenarios buy once cry once. I personally do not consider that type of scenario to be likely but if that is the goal and intention for the gun why skimp?

WV, I am pretty much in accord with you. (I've never owned a Sport model so I'm not in a position to judge.)

When I bought my TS I purchased a rifle with most of the features I wanted.

The first things I added were a good white light (Streamlight) and a good sling.

Then, I added a chrome silicon buffer spring (even though the OEM spring seemed perfectly adequate. Still for $6 it wasn't painful.)

Lastly, installed a Wilson Combat TTU trigger and a LaRue mounted Aimpoint H-2. (I didn't opt for the slightly more expensive T-2 since I hated night vision equipment when I used it on the job for SRT and don't expect to purchase such gear; and I don't plan on taking part in underwater ops anytime soon.)

I feel that my rifle is as combat ready as I need it to be while still being a ball to enjoy for recreation.

Due to the excellent advice I've received here, I was able to pretty much accomplish most of my buying and crying just the once. And for that I am ever appreciative.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I cleaned up this thread.

You guys got off on a tangent based on a post from a member having a bad day that was Reported (thanks guys) and deleted by Admin.

Carry on, gentlemen.

 

[C J]

The OP specifically said an optic for "SHTF" if that would ever to happen.

I guess I tend to not take that stuff so serious. There's no doubt that a better built sight has it's uses. I just think they are unlikely to come up although from the looks of things lately I'm less inclined to think that. My AR isn't my SHTF rifle anyway. I have a rifle with 25 years of rock solid performance behind it that will get the nod if it ever comes to that. Plus I have enough ammo for it to keep it going quite a while.

But again I never said there was no use for a better built sight. But unless civilization does break down we aren't likely to see the true value of such a sight IMO. YMMV.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I guess I tend to not take that stuff so serious. There's no doubt that a better built sight has it's uses. I just think they are unlikely to come up although from the looks of things lately I'm less inclined to think that. My AR isn't my SHTF rifle anyway. I have a rifle with 25 years of rock solid performance behind it that will get the nod if it ever comes to that. Plus I have enough ammo for it to keep it going quite a while.

But again I never said there was no use for a better built sight. But unless civilization does break down we aren't likely to see the true value of such a sight IMO. YMMV.

I was just addressing one point "SHTF" in the OP.

Civilization doesn't have to end to benefit from a red dot that is at the ready at all times and best suited to survive abuse... drops, slams against objects, submerged in a creek... on and on. Don't have to be an operator in Afghanistan to benefit from the an optic designed, built and tested that best survives abuse in any number of scenarios.

Value? What is the value of a used dime store optic? Not much. I have an H1 with a LaRue LT660 mount. Current combo price at LaRue is $630. Mine is in great shape. If I advertised it for sale around $450-$500 it would probably sell by the time I clicked the submit button. So what is the real difference in cost between having the best and a dime store red dot? $50? $100? About the price of one range visit?

Now we all have budgets and or own rationale for buying different optics which serve our intended use. I get that. Heck, I own a ton of dime store optics. I'm simply making the case that for a rifle counted on for more than recreation there's things to consider beyond the initial price.

 

[blues7]

I was just addressing one point "SHTF" in the OP.

Civilization doesn't have to end to benefit from a red dot that is at the ready at all times and best suited to survive abuse... drops, slams against objects, submerged in a creek... on and on. Don't have to be an operator in Afghanistan to benefit from an optic designed, built and tested that best survives abuse in any number of scenarios.

I know one thing for sure...civilization, (as I have come to know it), pretty much ends at the point someone tries to push in my door or intends harm to my family or loved ones. And at that point, like you, Phil, I want equipment that I can depend on to deal with that threat.

 

[Arik]

Ferguson riots, Baltimore riots, LA riots, Hurricane Katrina, .....I'm probably forgetting a few..... All these were SHTF. They were not Skynet, Judgment day, Alien invasion, global catastrophe SHTF.... they were local SHTF. everyone in those areas were in SHTF senerio. And this is what I'm more concerned with. Not zombies or artificial intelligence or a gigantic meteor. I'm more concerned with the next time a minority may be shot near me or the next guy who decided he wants his 72 virgins. Or worse, a group of guys. And all though highly unlikely ....a natural event.

These are my concerns and I prepare as best as I can. Will I even use my firearm outside of the range? 99.9% unlikely but I'd rather be prepared with a good quality firearm and optic. And since I'm using it anyway (at the range) I may as well use something good.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[C J]

If we all have different definitions of SHTF it's pretty hard to discuss the merits of various equipment. And one more time I think most HD situations call for point shooting. The whole thing about an AR or any high capacity semi-auto is that you can fire many times in a hurry. In my plans I will be shooting a lot before I get to the point where I can aim at all. I'll shoot as the gun comes up in many situations. Not all of course but many. I have handguns stashed at strategic points to make my move toward a rifle better protected. And I have shotguns I've been counting on for all of my life for HD. Those are pretty much always point shoot weapons. That's how I was taught to shoot them anyway.

I think we've all made the points we were going to make. I won't argue that a top quality sight is best for HD and SHTF but I will say there are legit alternatives in irons. I saw a torture test of my Sig P220 (one like it actually - they ain't getting mine) with an internal Lasermax laser sight. They did incredible things to that thing from setting off a grenade under it to dropping it from a helipcopter to shooting it with another pistol and it kept working through all of that. And that's just the tip of the iceberg what they did to it. Set it on fire, froze it in water, filled it with sand then poured it back out, ran over it with a semi, dropped it from a 3 story building, etc. etc. etc.. I've never seen any torture test be so extreme for a gun (I did see Top Gear test a Toyota pickup truck to an incredible degree). So now even though I don't carry that Sig any more (I've moved on to higher capacity pistols in smaller frames) I know I have one that will likely be working in 100 years. I don't have the laser though and for the same reason - point shooting with a pistol is definitely more important and that Sig will shoot as accurate as any off the rack pistol I've ever seen including some high dollar 1911's. To me it's the gun that counts. And to be honest I have no reason to believe my AR will endure such torture so why should be sight be better than the gun? I do have a semi-auto, high capacity rifle that I believe will endure tremendous abuse. That's my SHTF rifle. It also has nothing but irons.

 

[DavidWJ]

Here's the hard part, and Phil can use me as a prime example. I thought I'd be happy with the EoTech, then EoTech faced a government lawsuit because EoTech optics did not operate as EoTech claimed in the field. I returned the EoTech 512 to EoTech and am saddled with a G3 magnifier that I can't return.

Sorry, that doesn't mean much. EoTech probably just didn't want to "pay to prove" so the gov sued to get their money anyway.