What if they don't follow your commands?

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These made up scenarios...

Are great for debating ideals and are subjective to each one's own perspective.

Over the last half century, I have experienced a lot of what the worst of humanity has to offer.
It has caused me to take a hard line toward criminals of all sorts in general.

Real life is far more complicated and course ground.
Not sixty miles from where I sit here, there is a robbery and or shooting almost each and every nite.
Convenient store employees are threaten, beaten or shot and killed purty regularly.

What I'm about to share with y'all is true, I've only left out the names to protect the innocent.
A close personal friend told me of his experience as a victim of an armed robbery.

Back in the day when gas stations were full service with attendants on duty.
My friend was working the nite shift when a known ex-con came in the the station and robbed him.
He told me that he had his hand on the 45 under the counter, and I just let the robber walk away
with less that a hundred bucks.

Fast forward.....Not a week later the same ex-con strangled a young mother
to death and drown her five year old son in a sink of dirty dish water.

My friend told me later, I think of that woman and her little boy every nite.

The robber/killer died in prison....

Here fifty years later, I think my friend still carry's a deep regret for not acting that nite at the gas station.

.
 
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keith44spl, it is unhealthy to live amongst trash. Trash attracts vermin, thus needs to be picked up and disposed of properly. I am all for this.
 
I do believe that if someone is doing armed robberies, they have or will do more of them and sooner or later something bad is going to happen. So, I do believe that anyone who is doing armed robbery is a serious threat to society, even during their escape.

Having such a person shot during the commission of their crime is a good thing as long as no innocents are injured. Even during their escape they are still an extreme danger to society. But, pulling a gun on a armed robbery during the robbery or his escape is extremely dangerous to both yourself and anyone else in the area. I would never vote to convict anyone who shot an armed robber, during or after the crime. I don't even believe it should be illegal. Armed robbers should be considered bullseyes. Big problem is having everyone look at it that way could end up with some bad outcomes.

Around here I don't think any county attorney would get to excited about prosecuting and finding a jury that would convict nearly impossible. I personally plan to keep out of it as long as it looks to be just a robbery and be a good witness. The last thing I would want to do is escalate it from robbery to gun fight, where anyone besides the robber could get hurt.

As far as pulling your gun and giving orders? Non starter. Guy is probably wired up in some manner, even if not drugs, possibly withdrawal, at the very least adrenaline. If it come to drawing a gun, I am with Paco.
 
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Rastoff said:
There have been a couple threads recently about stopping a crime in progress or apprehending a criminal. Those of us who carry a gun, do so for protection. We understand that we're not the police.

Here's a completely made up scenario...
While in the check out line at the local convenient store, the guy in front of you threatens the cashier and tells her to give him the money. She hands him some money. You present your gun and tell him, "Stop, drop the weapon and get on the ground!"

To your amazement he doesn't follow your commands and starts to walk out. What now?
Click to expand...

Why we do not intervene. No uniform, no real arrest powers, just another dude with a gun. You pull the gun, expect it to go bang, because that is exactly what will need to happen should said bad guy decides to beat you or kill you for your gun. So unless you are 110% willing to kill someone, leave the gun in the holster.
 
keith44spl said:
These made up scenarios...

Are great for debating ideals and are subjective to each one's own perspective.

Over the last half century, I have experienced a lot of what the worst of humanity has to offer.
It has caused me to take a hard line toward criminals of all sorts in general.

Real life is far more complicated and course ground.
Not sixty miles from where I sit here, there is a robbery and or shooting almost each and every nite.
Convenient store employees are threaten, beaten or shot and killed purty regularly.

What I'm about to share with y'all is true, I've only left out the names to protect the innocent.
A close personal friend told me of his experience as a victim of an armed robbery.

Back in the day when gas stations were full service with attendants on duty.
My friend was working the nite shift when a known ex-con came in the the station and robbed him.
He told me that he had his hand on the 45 under the counter, and I just let the robber walk away
with less that a hundred bucks.

Fast forward.....Not a week later the same ex-con strangled a young mother
to death and drown her five year old son in a sink of dirty dish water.

My friend told me later, I think of that woman and her little boy every nite.

The robber/killer died in prison....

Here fifty years later, I think my friend still carry's a deep regret for not acting that nite at the gas station.

.
Click to expand...

Not only do the actions of people like your friend perpetuate violent crimes in society, it encourages them. Criminals are well aware that the majority of law abiding citizens are reluctant to take action that might result in the loss of a life - no matter how justified it may be. Fifty crimes are not likely committed by fifty different people. More likely it's about 10 people committing crimes over...and over...and over again, often because they weren't stopped when the opportunity to do so was there.

Where resistance is the strongest crime is the weakest.
 
Ziggy2525 said:
Capable and willing are two very different questions. If I live in an area with adequate policing, why would I insert myself in the middle of a non-violent store robbery if I’m just a customer? Good witness, you bet. Intervene in a non-violent robbery at the local quick shop - I don’t think so.
Click to expand...

Well it is a violent robbery if the guy uses a weapon, but your point is spot on. No shots fired, pull your gun, it is going to start.
 
Doug M. said:
Considering the number of criminals who escalate situations by their (further) unlawful conduct of not complying immediately with the orders of cops, expecting one to obey you is borderline delusional.
...
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure that when a civilian chp holder issues commands like "drop the weapon" that they are actually expecting the bad guy to comply or not. I think they're giving themselves that final permission to use deadly force. A sort of a final notice to the BG so GG can have some peace of mind when they do shoot.

Like you mentioned, there's no legal requirement and it's horrible tactics, but when I watch videos where civilians do it, it seems like a step they require to give themselves permission to shoot. It just wasn't some misunderstanding.

Just a thought.
 
Protected One said:
Not only do the actions of people like your friend perpetuate violent crimes in society, it encourages them. Criminals are well aware that the majority of law abiding citizens are reluctant to take action that might result in the loss of a life - no matter how justified it may be. Fifty crimes are not likely committed by fifty different people. More likely it's about 10 people committing crimes over...and over...and over again, often because they weren't stopped when the opportunity to do so was there.

Where resistance is the strongest crime is the weakest.
Click to expand...


.
You are correct, and I've always take my friend's difficulty to heart.

So, with that being said, When I lay down at nite,
I know in my heart, I have done the best I could do toward all parties concerned.

.
 
Smoke said:
Okay but remember what I said?

Check the news this is literally a nightly occurrence in Colorado Springs. I'll bet you I can go to the crime reports right now at 2:40 a.m. and there have already been at least two convenience stores robbed tonight. ETA I was off by 1 hour and 20 minutes. They hit number 2 at 4AM

I will further bet you that in neither one of them were any shots fired and in at least one of them the news report will say the robber never even displayed a gun.

"
Click to expand...

.

Well, that right there makes robbery all alright, right there don't it? :rolleyes:
.
 
NAH

Ziggy2525 said:
I'm not so sure that when a civilian chp holder issues commands like "drop the weapon" that they are actually expecting the bad guy to comply or not. I think they're giving themselves that final permission to use deadly force. A sort of a final notice to the BG so GG can have some peace of mind when they do shoot.

Like you mentioned, there's no legal requirement and it's horrible tactics, but when I watch videos where civilians do it, it seems like a step they require to give themselves permission to shoot. It just wasn't some misunderstanding.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

By the time you NEED TO DRAW, that "permission" ship should have sailed.
IMO, what the "GG" would be doing is giving up any tactical advantage & alerting a possible accomplice to shoot said good guy in the back. Remaining alive is plenty peace of mind for me.
 
steelslaver said:
Having such a person shot during the commission of their crime is a good thing as long as no innocents are injured. Even during their escape they are still an extreme danger to society. But, pulling a gun on a armed robbery during the robbery or his escape is extremely dangerous to both yourself and anyone else in the area. I would never vote to convict anyone who shot an armed robber, during or after the crime. I don't even believe it should be illegal. Armed robbers should be considered bullseyes. Big problem is having everyone look at it that way could end up with some bad outcomes. I think any county attorney would get to excited about prosecuting and finding a jury that would convict nearly impossible. I personally plan to keep out of it as long as it looks to be just a robbery and be a good witness. The last thing I would want to do is escalate it from robbery to gun fight, where anyone besides the robber could get.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Best paragraph of the thread.

Not only are errant shots fired by the CCW holder a possible danger, but you have to figure anyone desperate enough to do armed robbery in the first place is probably going to spray shots everywhere while he’s going down, unless you get off one good, aimed shot and drop him like a sack of potatos.
 
nachogrande said:
By the time you NEED TO DRAW, that "permission" ship should have sailed.
IMO, what the "GG" would be doing is giving up any tactical advantage & alerting a possible accomplice to shoot said good guy in the back. Remaining alive is plenty peace of mind for me.
Click to expand...

Yep, I agree.
 
Commands & warnings are for the movies & maybe LEO trying to end the situation without loss of life, usually in a stand off situation. If it is dangerous enough to present your own gun, it needs to go bang. It isn't tv, we don't say freeze & the bad guy drops his weapon. More likely you say anything, he turns & starts shooting, you better be more than ready & skilled enough at that point. Most are not imo. If it is life or death, shoot the bad guy to the ground without hitting anyone else. Again, most are not good enough.
 
fredj338 said:
Commands & warnings are for the movies & maybe LEO trying to end the situation without loss of life, usually in a stand off situation. If it is dangerous enough to present your own gun, it needs to go bang. It isn't tv, we don't say freeze & the bad guy drops his weapon. More likely you say anything, he turns & starts shooting, you better be more than ready & skilled enough at that point. Most are not imo. If it is life or death, shoot the bad guy to the ground without hitting anyone else. Again, most are not good enough.
Click to expand...

In agreement with the principle because of hard-learned lessons, I NEVER told anyone, "You're under arrest" until I had them in iron, and preferably in the backseat of my unit with the door closed. No need to unnecessarily risk a fight.
 
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