What if they don't follow your commands?
- Thread starter Rastoff
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I understand his thoughts but it conflicts with his first thought, “ How could I live with myself if they harmed the clerk and I did nothing but witness?”
It’s a difficult call and one that probably has two different responses; one before and one afterwards.
It’s a difficult call and one that probably has two different responses; one before and one afterwards.
Ziggy2525
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Nebraska, where this happened, has pretty restrictive laws around the use of deadly force. Not like NJ, but restrictive. It may seem like splitting hairs, but you can’t use deadly force to stop a robbery. You can use deadly force to stop a deadly force attack against a third person. In this case the c-store clerk being robbed.
From his comments in the story, the retired cop seemed to think it was a deadly force attack against the c-store clerk, but like’s been discussed in this thread maybe him issuing commands to “give up” made the issue worse.
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keith44spl
Member
The reliability of the eyewitness, sometimes is not as accurate
as one would like when investigating such incidents.
The more witnesses, the greater number of different details of recall,
from different angles and their different focus of the events.
Each statement will differ from the most minute detail to the un-recognizable.
Eyewitnesses testimony in court can be a crapshoot for sure.
.
as one would like when investigating such incidents.
The more witnesses, the greater number of different details of recall,
from different angles and their different focus of the events.
Each statement will differ from the most minute detail to the un-recognizable.
Eyewitnesses testimony in court can be a crapshoot for sure.
.
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keith44spl
Member
I've had a run in with a few, if they weren't ol Lucifer, they were some of his closest angels.
Justifiable homicide, isn't anywhere close to murder.
For all of my deeds, I am fully prepared to stand in judgement, before my Maker.
.
ColbyBruce
Member
Years ago there was a very effective defense strategy here in the south. The defense attorney addressed the court room, jury, and judge with this short yet truthful statement:
“Your Honor, the deceased needed killin’ “.
It often worked, as reasonable people existed back then.
“Your Honor, the deceased needed killin’ “.
It often worked, as reasonable people existed back then.
keith44spl
Member
Back in the old days......When Rangers were first require to turn in activity reports.
There was a line on the pre-printed forms that addressed
Disposition of Prisoner....One ol Ranger said of one , "Meaner than hell, had to kill him."
.
ColbyBruce
Member
Some of the Georgians here may remember the September 2005 case of Kimberly Boyd, a thirty year old woman who was assaulted/kidnapped/carjacked from a gas station in metro Atlanta. A citizen witnessed the incident and pursued her vehicle, which the thug wrecked and caused her death. The armed murderer then tried to run off and was shot and killed by the pursuer.
keith44spl
Member
The Legislators of Commonwealth of Kentucky understands the needs
of the people in self defense and the defense of others.
.
503.085 Justification and criminal and civil immunity for use of permitted force --
Exceptions.
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in KRS 503.050, 503.055, 503.070, and
503.080 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution
and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom the force
was used is a peace officer, as defined in KRS 446.010, who was acting in the
performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself
in accordance with any applicable law, or the person using force knew or reasonably
should have known that the person was a peace officer. As used in this subsection,
the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and
charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of
force as described in subsection (1) of this section, but the agency may not arrest the
person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force
that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss
of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action
brought by a plaintiff, if the court finds that the defendant is immune from
prosecution as provided in subsection (1) of this section.
Effective: July 12, 2006
History: Created 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 192, sec. 6, effective July 12, 2006.
Kentucky Revised Statutes - Chapter 503
.
of the people in self defense and the defense of others.
.
503.085 Justification and criminal and civil immunity for use of permitted force --
Exceptions.
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in KRS 503.050, 503.055, 503.070, and
503.080 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution
and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom the force
was used is a peace officer, as defined in KRS 446.010, who was acting in the
performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself
in accordance with any applicable law, or the person using force knew or reasonably
should have known that the person was a peace officer. As used in this subsection,
the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and
charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of
force as described in subsection (1) of this section, but the agency may not arrest the
person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force
that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss
of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action
brought by a plaintiff, if the court finds that the defendant is immune from
prosecution as provided in subsection (1) of this section.
Effective: July 12, 2006
History: Created 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 192, sec. 6, effective July 12, 2006.
Kentucky Revised Statutes - Chapter 503
.
fredj338
Member
So then we are back to the "can you live with yourself"?
fredj338
Member
THis assumes you did nothing wrong & the court found you innocent of any charges. You can still be sued.
nachogrande
Member
MAKE YOUR DECISION IN THE MOMENT.
THEN LIVE WITH IT, Good or bad. Like there is another option? Feel guilty about the what if's and woulda shoulda coulda's??? Nobody I know can forsee the future. If you acted in the moment, you can't undo it.
THEN LIVE WITH IT, Good or bad. Like there is another option? Feel guilty about the what if's and woulda shoulda coulda's??? Nobody I know can forsee the future. If you acted in the moment, you can't undo it.
nachogrande
Member
YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT ASSUME.
"INNOCENT" is not an option. It's guilty, or NOT GUILTY. When not guilty many may feel, you got away with it THIS TIME.
"INNOCENT" is not an option. It's guilty, or NOT GUILTY. When not guilty many may feel, you got away with it THIS TIME.
keith44spl
Member
Is that is a question.....
If a civil suit is brought against one that was justified in using
force that is allow by the statutes, the defendant is immune
from criminal charges that immunity extends as well to any
civil liability of said incident.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss
of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action
brought by a plaintiff, if the court finds that the defendant is immune from
prosecution as provided in subsection (1) of this section.
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ColbyBruce
Member
In Ms. Boyd’s case the incident was witnessed by several people, the pursuer was on his phone with LE, it was being reported on TV as it was happening. I imagine the fellow who shot the murderer got over his initial shock and sleeps soundly at night.
fredj338
Member
No I am talking about the chase that caused the crash. Yeah bad guy dead but so was the woman???
Same scenario is very possible in a SD shooting, especially with ill trained ccw holders. So bad guy dies but your 2-3 misses strike & kill an innocent. We all have to make choices & live with those choices. I can live with my inaction that possibly caused an onnocent's death. I doubt I could live with my action that caused an innocent's death. It si something every ccw must ask themselves when they carry: am I willing to take life & can I live with my actions, regardless of the outcome? Why many of us train & practice, because it is that serious.
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fredj338
Member
That is a big if you were wrong in your actions.
So bad guy has fake gun in robbery, you shoot him & hit & kill an innocent. Immunity, I doubt it.
ColbyBruce
Member
The good citizen was a bit behind the killer, and the police were behind him. The killer ran through an intersection and was T-boned by a big truck, likely unaware he was being followed.
If you google the incident there is a good bit of info on the incident.
keith44spl
Member
It may make a differance in california......but fake or real, loaded or un-load doesn't make one bit of differance in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. You might want to re-read my post.
.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
So, your recommendation is to shoot them if they don't follow your commands?
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