Carrying Concealed - And a Stranger goes for your weapon

[ArmednDangerous]

It's not for me to comment on the OP's situation or what he did or didn't do correctly. Opinions are like, well, you know. But here's my 2 cents on how I would try to defeat the situation.

First, I would not be in a place where I knew bad actors were frequently there. If it's job related, I would find another one. No job is worth getting hurt or killed over.

Second, I've recently started carrying OC spray as part of my EDC. In a situation like the OP encountered, it may have been possible, and certainly would have been appropriate, to spray the guy in the face. No one except family or close friends has the right to lay hands on my without my permission. So some non-lethal but effective response can handle that situation usually, or at least long enough for you to get distance and draw to prevent a follow-up attack.

My comment on your reply.......

Agreed. As soon as I felt the threat was unmanageable I stopped working there. TBH, name a residential or business place that is always free of criminal element. It's nearly impossible. If you could run a criminal background check on everyone where you are going....maybe? Criminals are all around. Everywhere you go. You will never be able to completely avoid the "bad element".

I do often carry OC spray.

This incident occurred in an apartment complex. People were around. When someone approaches you, seriously, at what point do you use the OC spray or physically attack the person?
Watch the next time you are out and tell me no one gets within 3 feet of you. Realize that if you mistakenly OC spray or attack someone, you could be facing jail time if they don't actually attack you and there are witnesses. it could be called assault.

FROM EXPERIENCE, I'm telling you right here it's not as easy a decision to make as you like to think.

I'm telling EVERYONE who has not experienced something like this that it is nowhere as easy a situation to deal with as you think from the comfort of your keyboard.

In a way, I'm glad that it happened, As a result, I'm probably that much closer to being prepared for it next time than you.

We learn from experience. This was a learning experience for me.

The ONLY thing I can think of is to be keenly aware of everyone around you and keep distance.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

This is the element that's hard to plan for, in my opinion. Attacks often come from ambush. In your case, you got complacent. Very often it comes from around a corner or when a person is distracted opening a car door or some other kind of transition point.

As said above, nobody can be on high alert 100% of the time.

Did i get complacent, or did the perp do an excellent job over several months of convincing conversation?

Perhaps both.

Sometimes in life, a person you completely trust can or will betray you. Ask the millions of divorce lawyers.

Perhaps I was actually far more alert than anyone here wants to give credit...since for whatever reason, I decided NOT to carry that day and I'm here to tell the story.

Maybe others here who say I messed up, and who had been armed, wouldn't have survived? No telling.

Like I said, the guy was about 230 and built like a bouncer.
He probably was a bouncer for that matter.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

I already got ambushed. I'm still here.

Congrats.

Do tell.

Don't you want others to learn from your mistakes?
You're not afraid of being told you were not prepared....are you?

 

[Borderboss]

My comment on your reply.......

Agreed. As soon as I felt the threat was unmanageable I stopped working there. TBH, name a residential or business place that is always free of criminal element. It's nearly impossible. If you could run a criminal background check on everyone where you are going....maybe? Criminals are all around. Everywhere you go. You will never be able to completely avoid the "bad element".

I do often carry OC spray.

This incident occurred in an apartment complex. People were around. When someone approaches you, seriously, at what point do you use the OC spray or physically attack the person?
Watch the next time you are out and tell me no one gets within 3 feet of you. Realize that if you mistakenly OC spray or attack someone, you could be facing jail time if they don't actually attack you and there are witnesses. it could be called assault.

FROM EXPERIENCE, I'm telling you right here it's not as easy a decision to make as you like to think.

I'm telling EVERYONE who has not experienced something like this that it is nowhere as easy a situation to deal with as you think from the comfort of your keyboard.

In a way, I'm glad that it happened, As a result, I'm probably that much closer to being prepared for it next time than you.

We learn from experience. This was a learning experience for me.

The ONLY thing I can think of is to be keenly aware of everyone around you and keep distance.

I think you want to reread my comment. I didn't say you should spray everyone that gets within 3 feet of you. I said that I would spray anyone who laid hands on my without my permission unless they were family or friends. Big difference.

Any while it's true that there are criminal elements everywhere, I think it's pretty obvious to most people whether the place they're in is frequented by a bad element (as you yourself noted), versus an area that's going to be primarily civilized people.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

I think you want to reread my comment. I didn't say you should spray everyone that gets within 3 feet of you. I said that I would spray anyone who laid hands on my without my permission unless they were family or friends. Big difference.

Any while it's true that there are criminal elements everywhere, I think it's pretty obvious to most people whether the place they're in is frequented by a bad element (as you yourself noted), versus an area that's going to be primarily civilized people.

Fine, but just know that someone could ambush you and knock you out cold....and you would never know what hit you.

What I'm saying is that you won't always have the luxury of knowing someone is about to lay their hands on you. as was the case in my situation. It was unexpected.

People get ambushed, killed, robbed at Walmart everyday.
Do you consider that a bad element place? Are you always on high alert when in Walmart?

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
But if you have never had anything like this happen to you, it's good to think about it ahead of time. it happened so fast that he was pulling back by the time it registered what he was doing. Less than 2 seconds.
....

People seem to be taking pot shots at you. Not me. Life's a mix of circumstances (good and bad), awareness (good and bad), and plain old luck (good and bad). You came through your event unscathed, learned some lessons from it, and are trying to pass the info on. OK.

One lesson my may want to add to your list... You said in your OP you knew the guy had a violent past. Never trust a known sociopath, no matter how nice they may seem. They're playing the long game and you're probably their intended victim.

 

[Kurusu]

Congrats.

Do tell.

Don't you want others to learn from your mistakes?
You're not afraid of being told you were not prepared....are you?

I wasn't ambushed alone. That's all I have to say.

 

[Smoke]

I will say that there's no one at this forum who could have done any differently even though from the sidelines, they think otherwise. As I said, it happened in less than 2 seconds.

Does that include those of us who did do something differently and did keep our guns?

You don't "Let" yourself get jumped

I'm sorry mister but you did let yourself get jumped.

It's called an AMBUSH,

What you describe was not an ambush. What you're describing is you failing to maintain situational awareness and to enforce your Reaction Gap.

I would like to respectfully suggest that you look around your area and see if there any trainers that offer classes in managing unknown contacts. I think you would benefit.

What I'm saying is that you won't always have the luxury of knowing someone is about to lay their hands on you. as was the case in my situation. It was unexpected.

Are you familiar at all with pre assault indicators? There's a really good video on YouTube by Massad Ayoob called Danger Signs you might want to give it a look.

Do you consider that (Walmart)a bad element place?

I most assuredly do. Especially after about 9 O'Clock at night

Are you always on high alert when in Walmart?

I most assuredly am. Especially after about 9 O'Clock at night.

Walmart is what is known as a "Watering Hole". A watering hole is a place were predators gather because they know prey goes there. Street Rats go to Walmart literally looking for people to rob

Perhaps I was actually far more alert than anyone here wants to give credit...since for whatever reason, I decided NOT to carry that day and I'm here to tell the story.

You're not "Here to tell the story" because of anything you did you're "Here to tell the story" because he let you go.

When someone approaches you, seriously, at what point do you use the OC spray or physically attack the person?

See, this is where some training in managing unknown contacts would really be beneficial. To answer your question, you use OC spray or attack the person when you can articulate a very specific action on the part of the other person that would cause any reasonable person to believe that their life was in danger or they were in danger of being seriously injured.

FROM EXPERIENCE, I'm telling you right here it's not as easy a decision to make as you like to thinm.

FROM EXPERIENCE, I'm telling you it's not that hard to figure out

 

[ContinentalOp]

Nobody can maintain 100% full-alert status 100% of the time. Of course, that's a bit different than being aware of your environment, who's near you, what they're doing, etc. It's Condition Orange/Red vs. Condition Yellow, in Jeff Cooper-speak.

Of course, nobody is infallible. Even trained teams of bodyguards can miss something. The assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, protected by his Secret Service detail, is one example of that.

That's why those of us who carry guns for self protection do so, for those times when we can't avoid a life threatening situation.

And sometimes, even if we do everything right, it can still end badly.

So I do my best to be aware of my surroundings and avoid potentially sketchy situations. I keep my guns concealed. I've learned some basic empty-hand self defense techniques and weapon retention skills. It's never happened to me, even when I worked as an armed guard carrying openly, but I know it's a possibility.

Just my opinion.

 

[flagman1776]

First off, I want to thank the OP for having the courage to admit a mistake and open this discussion so we can all learn from it. Anyone can be overpowered. We try hard not to be surprised. But that is the definition of an ambush.
A lot of cops are indeed shot with their own or a partner's snatched gun. Security holsters can help but if a perp can't get your gun out, neither can you.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

Does that include those of us who did do something differently and did keep our guns?

I'm sorry mister but you did let yourself get jumped.

What you describe was not an ambush. What you're describing is you failing to maintain situational awareness and to enforce your Reaction Gap.

I would like to respectfully suggest that you look around your area and see if there any trainers that offer classes in managing unknown contacts. I think you would benefit.

Are you familiar at all with pre assault indicators? There's a really good video on YouTube by Massad Ayoob call Danger Signs you might want to give it a look.

I most assuredly do. Especially after about 9 O'Clock at night

I most assuredly am. Especially after about 9 O'Clock at night.

Walmart is what is known as a "Watering Hole". A watering hole is a place were predators gather because they know prey goes there. Street Rats go to Walmart literally looking for people to rob

You're not "Here to tell the story" because of anything you did you're "Here to tell the story" because he let you go

ok. thanks
But know that your style could likely discourage others from sharing their experiences with us. There is no need to attack or insult the messenger.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

First off, I want to thank the OP for having the courage to admit a mistake and open this discussion so we can all learn from it. Anyone can be overpowered. We try hard not to be surprised. But that is the definition of an ambush.
A lot of cops are indeed shot with their own or a partner's snatched gun. Security holsters can help but if a perp can't get your gun out, neither can you.

Thank you.

I REALLY appreciate your kind words. Rare so far.

I believe I learned from that mistake.
Still, no matter how aware I am I realize that it is not possible to be 100%, 100% of the time. That was a moment I will not forget.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

First off, I want to thank the OP for having the courage to admit a mistake and open this discussion so we can all learn from it. Anyone can be overpowered. We try hard not to be surprised. But that is the definition of an ambush.
A lot of cops are indeed shot with their own or a partner's snatched gun. Security holsters can help but if a perp can't get your gun out, neither can you.

I also want to throw out there that it is possible that there could be people practicing to do this...just as people practice drawing a firearm or marksmanship.

The guy did it so fast that I am not certain he has not done it before.

 

[delcrossv]

I also want to throw out there that it is possible that there could be people practicing to do this...just as people practice drawing a firearm or marksmanship.

The guy did it so fast that I am not certain he has not done it before.

Most likely has, a lot of times. Being able to do a quick frisk is sort of basic training in the 'hood.

 

[Smoke]

ok. thanks
But know that your style could likely prevent others from sharing their experiences with us. There is no need to attack or insult the messenger.

There's a difference between attacking and disagreeing.

I mean, with all due respect you act like you're the only person this has happened to. It's happened to me more than once and I'm still here AND I still have my gun.

I mean I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but you made some mistakes which indicate to me that you have very little training.

It's hard to even tell for sure what happened because there's a lot of gaps in your story. What were you doing for a living that had you in that apartment building several times? What were you doing that gave you time to hang out and talk to this thug while you were at work? What allowed you to make decision not to go back to work anymore? Do you deliver pizzas? Are you a cable installer? Do you do maintenance for the apartment company?

 

[double-dipper]

To OP that's odd behavior for someone to do. He ether knew you carried a firearm or seen you printing at some point. You handled it well, I know I would have broke his nose.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Variation on the 21ft rule.......... no way you can keep everyone outside a 21 ft circle.... things you can do..... but not things you can do all the time.


Did he trap your arms against your body??????

Why God gave you feet and knees!

 

[ArmednDangerous]

Variation on the 21ft rule.......... no way you can keep everyone outside a 21 ft circle.... things you can do..... but not things you can do all the time.

Did he trap your arms against your body??????

Why God gave you feet and knees!

lol.

No, IIRC, he took a few steps forward as though he was going past me then in less than 2 seconds reached under my arms and around my waist.

Seriously, it was that fast. Blink of an eye.

No matter what anyone says in this thread, I don't think anyone could have done any different. The guy was smooth and like I said, I'm thinking he's done this before.

Could I have fought him? Yeah. But we were on the 4th floor on the balcony and he was like 230 bouncer type def muscular enough to lift me over the edge. A 40 ft drop.

Had I hit him it would have been "ON" and one or both of us would have been hurt or worse. Was it worth it to go that route? The outcome was no harm to me, no loss of my weapon, lesson learned. Looking back, the ONLY things I could have done to prevent this is to not have gone there, avoid this guy completely or always keep distance and when he first stepped forward, I could have stepped back....but again you have less than 2 seconds.

There was absolutely ZERO time to use OC spray or anything.
LESS than 2 SECONDS.

It's like some of the folks here saying I was basically asking for it, but I would bet $100 cash that I could tap out any of them with a blind sucker punch with no problem.

I had had conversations with this guy over months. he talked about his kids, wife and all the normal things people talk about.
So when he did this, I was completely taken off guard. It would be the equivalent of having someone at work do it, then make light of it. Has no one ever known someone who was an ex felon? Or someone who has been in trouble with the law? You can still have friends or family like that.

It's not always possible to know who will do what.

For my part, since then I stay clear of people I perceive as dangerous or psyco. The only reason I was there was because of work. Skilled technician work.

 

[BAM-BAM]

LOL..... should have given him a big wet kiss on the lips........ bet that would have backed him off!!!

 

[BAM-BAM]

If in doubt...... open hand slap to both ears.