38 Special +P+ Again

[IAhunter]

I have a couple boxes of that Federal +P+ Hydrashok ammo left that I horse traded for in the 90's. I used to carry it in a S&W model 60 in .357. It was very accurate in both that M60 and my 686. I have saved the last few boxes for nostalgia I guess.

 

[Univibe]

Sometimes it pays to be an old fart. +P+ was the result of various groups who agitated that the use of .357 MAGNUM ammunition on criminals-excuse me, disadvantaged citizens engaged in income redistribution- was cruel and unusual punishment and other affronts to humanity and the constitution.

At the same time, the bullet designs of the time weren't entirely successful of reliable expansion at lower velocities. The general trend was to use pretty much the same bullet in standard pressure, +P and +P+ loadings.

What +P+ basically did was create .357 results in cases inoffensively head stamped as .38 Spl. The stuff was sold to government agencies that signed extensive hold harmless agreements which warned of excessive wear on firearms, possible firearm destruction and injuries and/or death to users in the case of said destruction.

There was some leakage to the NGO market, primarily of stuff that probably didn't meet all QC requirements-like velocity.

Sounds like fake news to me.

Rather, +P and +P+ were attempts to improve the (perceived) lack of performance of the standard pressure 38 spl load, which was 158 grains at about 750 fps.

At the time .38 spl guns were widely used in police work, and by armed citizens, and these hotter loads were an attempt to more nearly approach .357 performance without the need for switching to a magnum revolver.

 

[glenwolde]

Same stuff...newer box I think. I got this stuff around early 2013..??? I remember after Sandy Hook I found myself with lots of primers, powders, and lead bullets but nothing much in the factory made defensive stuff. I asked a friend who is a reserve Sherriff to order me a few boxes of anything from his police supply. This is what I got.

 

[SuperMan]

..was wondering if anyone has run this 147 +P+ over a chronograph from 2" and 4" barrels to see what they are doing...

As I recall the 110 grain Treasury load was going in the 1200 fps range from a 4"...

Thanks...Bob

 

[Echo40]

I've been saying this for years now, I'm not a fan of +P+ loads or any other such variations of loads which exist for the purpose of pushing the envelope of any given cartridge's capabilities past the threshold of their intended design specifications. If .38 isn't already powerful enough to suit your purpose, then it's best to simply move on to a more powerful cartridge like .357 Magnum rather than attempt to push .38 Special into .357 Magnum territory withl +P+ loads.

 

[rosewood]

I've been saying this for years now, I'm not a fan of +P+ loads or any other such variations of loads which exist for the purpose of pushing the envelope of any given cartridge's capabilities past the threshold of their intended design specifications. If .38 isn't already powerful enough to suit your purpose, then it's best to simply move on to a more powerful cartridge like .357 Magnum rather than attempt to push .38 Special into .357 Magnum territory withl +P+ loads.

And if recoil is an issue with the mag, go with some downloaded light recoil mag rounds to be in that 38 +P+ range.

That being said, I imagine the trigger for the .38 spcl +P+ for LE was because some bureaucrat wanted them to shoot .38 spcl for PR reasons and the +P+ was the attempt of the LEOs to get something more powerful and still meet those PR reasons. Basically, working with what they got.

Rosewood

 

[Old Corp]

I've been saying this for years now, I'm not a fan of +P+ loads or any other such variations of loads which exist for the purpose of pushing the envelope of any given cartridge's capabilities past the threshold of their intended design specifications. If .38 isn't already powerful enough to suit your purpose, then it's best to simply move on to a more powerful cartridge like .357 Magnum rather than attempt to push .38 Special into .357 Magnum territory withl +P+ loads.

Do mostly agree - except I do enjoy handloads for a c.1954 .38-44 that from my research, closely approximate the .38-44 'Hi-Speed' loads of the day.
Always a 158-160 gr. hardcast LSWC or LSWC-HP.
Every once in awhile, I'll use them in a newer M10, but they're a handful.
Other than the HD, they usually go into one of my .357's.
Surprisingly accurate.

 

[Nevada Ed]

..was wondering if anyone has run this 147 +P+ over a chronograph from 2" and 4" barrels to see what they are doing...

As I recall the 110 grain Treasury load was going in the 1200 fps range from a 4"...

Thanks...Bob

The Federal 110 +P+ 38F-TD load came out in 1980.
In a K frame it had 20,000 PSI and in a 2" fps was 1,000-1050
the 4" was stated to get 1150 fps.

Winchester came out earlier and had a Nickle case and was the ONLY 38 case that was marked with a +P+ on the case.
The others only had a +P stamped on thier case, as far as I know, with the 110 gr. Treasery loading.

 

[Echo40]

Do mostly agree - except I do enjoy handloads for a c.1954 .38-44 that from my research, closely approximate the .38-44 'Hi-Speed' loads of the day.
Always a 158-160 gr. hardcast LSWC or LSWC-HP.
Every once in awhile, I'll use them in a newer M10, but they're a handful.
Other than the HD, they usually go into one of my .357's.
Surprisingly accurate.

I don't think that the duplication of hotter loads from a bygone era is quite the same as modernized +P+ loads which were invented for the purpose of turbocharging an existing cartridge beyond its design specifications, especially if all guns can handle said load without any risk involved.

I'm specifically opposed to the concept of overpressure loads which attempt to push a cartridge beyond its own limitations to the point that only a select few firearms can safely be loaded/fired with said loads.

In other words, I'm thinking of stuff like the .45 Long Colt loads which are only safe to shoot out of a Freedom Arms Revolver, Ruger Super Blackhawk/Redhawk, or otherwise a firearm chambered for .454 Casull or .460 S&W Magnum.

Basically, if it can't be fired safely from a typical example of practically any firearm designed for use with standard pressure smokeless powder loads of any given cartridge, then I would advise against it in favor of simply opting for a firearm which is chambered for a more powerful cartridge.

So yeah, as long as these High Speed loads you are referring to are historical loads which are perfectly safe to shoot from practically any .38 Special revolver, then whatever.

In general, my advice isn't intended for experienced handloaders, but for the average shooter who is shopping for defensive loads. Folks are free to load whatever they like, and provided that they're being safe/responsible about it, I have no issue with that whatsoever. I just don't want to see someone injured because they decided to load up an Airweight with +P+ loads thinking that .38 Special is inadequate for self-defense in standard pressure or SAAMI Spec +P loads.

 

[rosewood]

In other words, I'm thinking of stuff like the .45 Long Colt loads which are only safe to shoot out of a Freedom Arms Revolver, Ruger Super Blackhawk/Redhawk, or otherwise a firearm chambered for .454 Casull or .460 S&W Magnum.

Thing is, there really isn't a cartridge that fits that bill. I love the 45 colt. I also have the .454 and had a .460 at one point. They just have too much muzzle blast for my taste and are usually much heavier guns. Loading up a 45 colt in the 44 mag range is just the ticket in my opinion and you can get the same performance in the 45 colt with less pressure than the 44 mag.

I do however label my hot 45 colt loads very well with warnings of what you can shoot it in. I do wish the 45 colt had been loaded hotter to begin with, but alas, it was developed during black powder days, and you couldn't get those pressures without smokeless.

Rosewood

 

[Old Corp]

Thing is, there really isn't a cartridge that fits that bill. I love the 45 colt. I also have the .454 and had a .460 at one point. They just have too much muzzle blast for my taste and are usually much heavier guns. Loading up a 45 colt in the 44 mag range is just the ticket in my opinion and you can get the same performance in the 45 colt with less pressure than the 44 mag.

I do however label my hot 45 colt loads very well with warnings of what you can shoot it in. I do wish the 45 colt had been loaded hotter to begin with, but alas, it was developed during black powder days, and you couldn't get those pressures without smokeless.

Rosewood

Good point.
My SOP for my few guns chambered in .45 Colt is simple.
If it has a JHP bullet, it's pretty daggone hot and loaded for deer hunting for use only in my Winchester Trapper carbine.

If it's any sort of cast bullet, it's at best fairly close to factory spec and for use in my S&W M25-5, the Uberti Schofield or the wife's Judge (hers, 'cuz she wanted one).
That's worked OK for me for many years.

 

[SuperMan]

"I don't think that the duplication of hotter loads from a bygone era is quite the same as modernized +P+ loads which were invented for the purpose of turbocharging an existing cartridge beyond its design specifications, especially if all guns can handle said load without any risk involved.

I'm specifically opposed to the concept of overpressure loads which attempt to push a cartridge beyond its own limitations to the point that only a select few firearms can safely be loaded/fired with said loads."

I believe you missed the point of the original .38-44 loading...it did just that...turned a standard pressure .38 Special into a +P+ loading... And although originally intended for the S&W Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman Colt also said it was safe for all their larger frame revolvers...

And more recently the boutique ammo companies have loaded many of the classic rounds into a lot more than they ever have been and have deemed them safe in even J-frame revolvers.

Check out the velocities for the Buffalo Bore .38 Special and .44 Special...and check over on the BB website and the .38s are good to go in any modern .38 Special. The only warning for the .44 is no Charter Arms Bulldogs...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM&t=13s[/ame]

Just because the Big Three won't put out more effective ammo due to their attorneys doesn't mean it can't be safely done.... We don't have to live in the Black Powder Era anymore...

Bob

 

[sigp220.45]

..was wondering if anyone has run this 147 +P+ over a chronograph from 2" and 4" barrels to see what they are doing...

As I recall the 110 grain Treasury load was going in the 1200 fps range from a 4"...

Thanks...Bob

Federal used to quote a velocity of 950 fps from a 4" vented barrel.

I've read other chronograph reports of 900 fps from a 4" revolver.

That extra + on the box sure makes people nervous. I've seen advice to only shoot it out of an N frame!

Its just not that hot. Its a good solid load and will still kill people, but its barely a +P load.

 

[Echo40]

@Superman
I don't know what you're on about, but my post was directed at the OP, who was referring to .38 Special +P+, not .38-44. So whatever, handloaders can do whatever they want, I'm just throwing out my 2¢ regarding +P+ loads.
I haven't read every post in this thread, so I'm unaware of where the discussion has gone since it was posted, and just sort of jumped in headfirst regarding my stance on overpressure +P+ ammo.

 

[rosewood]

or the wife's Judge (hers, 'cuz she wanted one).

My brother and I both have a Judge. Rule is, you don't shoot anything out of it but standard pressure loads. Those cylinder walls are thin. He also has a Taurus 450 in 45 colt. Same rule for that gun. Now in my Vaqueros and Blackhawk all bets are off...

 

[ddixie884]

..was wondering if anyone has run this 147 +P+ over a chronograph from 2" and 4" barrels to see what they are doing...

As I recall the 110 grain Treasury load was going in the 1200 fps range from a 4"...

Thanks...Bob

Erich chronoed the 147 a few years ago I believe he got about 950fps, maybe from a 4" Colt PP, but I could be wrong........

A Colt from yester year might give 50 to 70 more fps than others as they had tighter bores.

For a duffer with a .38 in the bedside table drawer, he might be better suited with a box of boutique ammo than with a High cap 9mm or a new .357 Magnum.

As always, JMHO-YMMV............

 

[Erich]

Erich chronoed the 147 a few years ago I believe he got about 950fps, maybe from a 4" Colt PP, but I could be wrong........

A Colt from yester year might give 50 to 70 more fps than others as they had tighter bores.

For a duffer with a .38 in the bedside table drawer, he might be better suited with a box of boutique ammo than with a High cap 9mm or a new .357 Magnum.

As always, JMHO-YMMV............

You shamed me into digging out some old logs until I actually found some data, amigo. I didn't find the 4" data, but I found this:

On 20 November 2005 it was 60°F at the Albuquerque City Range (5950'>sea level) when I shot the Federal .38 Special +P+ 147-gr Hydra-Shok load out of my 3" Model 65-5. My notes indicate the round did an average of 896 fps, with a spread of 25.4 fps and a completely respectable standard deviation of 8.67 fps.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Back in 9/01/2012 in my little M49 38 spl. snub nose with some Unique powder
I got a 110 gr, JHP Sierra bullet up to 996 fps.

With my 686 6", that same little bullet with a bunch of Unique powder in a 38 case
went out the end of the barrel to cross my chrony at 1305 fps.

I did not push the 125 gr JHP bullet but did get it in a 38 case to get up to a nice 1210 fps, with a 158 LswHp tripping along at 1124 fps with Blue Dot.

 

[ddixie884]

Erich, the reason I remembered that was I was thinking about buying a case of that ammo from maybe "Ammo To Go" and was very curious about it. I thought about it too long. It disappeared from the web site and I never saw it for sale again. I have learned to be a bit quicker on the trigger...........

 

[wood714]

When I saw the bullet with the pointy thing in the hollow point, I said to myself...self you had some bullets like that.

Was thinking I bought them way back when I bought my AMT 380 Back Up. Checked my 380 can and sure enough I still had them.

The price on the box makes me sad.