Is a new diesel really worth it?

[germansheperd]

Long story short my buddy will be in the market in a year or so for a new truck. He bought a 32 foot Bumper pull camper last year and has a older V10 1ton Ram Dually. Truck pulls it fine, the camper is about 8k dry. You can imagine the fuel milage he's getting pulling that hoss, iirc he said about 5MPG.

His furthest trips are every other weekend about a hour and a half away one way. Furthest he went last year was about four hours one way, but he only did that once.

Now fast forward, I think he's getting dead set on a diesel. Personally I think this is a bad idea. This isn't a argument of what pulls better, gas or diesel. If you've ever pulled with both you'll know the answer. If you're out pulling a skid steer day in and day out and certainly near that 12-14k range a diesel makes sense.

My thing is truck prices are through the roof, a base model gas truck will run you 40k at least new, roll with the diesel option and add another 10k no matter what brand you go with. Imo the bigger issue is the Def and all the emissions garb they put on these things. Not to factor in the higher maintenance costs and god forbid something goes bad they aren't cheap to fix or say replace injectors on.

Fuel costs more and yet they will do better MPG wise, if you crunch the numbers you'll be a long way out before you recoup the fuel consumption difference. Seems these newer modern gassers are better equipped and rated for towing than ever before. I have a 2017 2500HD with the 6.0 and 4:10's out back. I can average 12 MPG around town, I've done as good as 16 MPG on the highway and about 10 MPG towing around 8K.

Don't get me wrong I'd love a diesel but I personally can't justify it and I don't think he's thought a lot of this through.

I'm well aware it's not my money nor my problem, just trying to steer a brother away from what I think could be a potential problem.

Thoughts?

I think you both have the cart in front of the horse. The truck market is so volatile and looks to be so in the coming year. There is little inventory to be had (no semi-conductor chips), prices are through the roof.
I'd forget about this until a week or two before pulling the trigger and prepare to pay through the nose.
Reminds me when I was younger. We'd have old dukers wanting lease payments and then say they were looking to buy in 6mos I'd lol. Those payments today will be different in 6mos.

 

[glenwolde]

It can put out 430 horsepower and 540 foot pounds of torque. Towing capacity is 12, 700 pounds. One weakness, bed capacity is only 2,120 due to the battery weight and the electrics.

...and that's exactly where everybody towing with a half-ton gets in trouble. They look at towing capacity only.

So they see an 11,000 pound trailer and figure they are good. But that's a curb weight. Loaded the trailer will be more like the 12,700 max.

Then they fail to calculate the rear axle/truck load. A 12,000# trailer could easily have a 1,500# tongue weight. If you put much in the truck besides the driver you go overweight. But they load it up with the wife, kids, dogs, bbq grills, dirt bikes, etc.

Then they put airbags in it to level it out so it "looks good". It's not. There is no after market device that can increase the cargo capacity of the vehicle.

You'll find no end of people that tell you "I've been doing it for years, tows like it's not even there." I'm sure it does. The risk of going overweight comes if and when you have to make a panic maneuver. If you never do, you're fine. But you have no margin of safety.

I know of a few stories of guys that took the "It's fine" position until one day they make a slightly sudden lane change, going downhill, in a crosswind, and lost it. The tail wagged the dog.

God forbid some gets injured or killed. The investigation will show you were overweight and that liability will get hung on you. Your insurance company might even walk away.

Again, you can't have too much truck. If you're towing something that's heavier than the tow vehicle go as big as you can. Even my one ton crew cab dually at more than 8,000# is less than half the weight of the RV. It pulls it but I know it's there. But it's a very stable ride. That heavy a combination doesn't get blown around as bad as the "ultralite" trailers. Now 18 wheelers blowing by me I don't notice.

But you don't really know where you are unless you load it, and weigh it. I'd strongly suggest you weigh your complete loaded rig, and then your tow vehicle detached. There's CAT scales at every truck stop and it's pretty simple.

 

[rubiranch]

That's where I'd be at and as a life long GM guy is like to try the new ford 7.3 gasser. He's one of these die hard Dodge/Ram guys. I recently discovered they put that displacement on demand on those 6.4 Hemis like GM puts on the 5.3's. I told him I'd stay clear of that nonsense. I've had a Silverado with that and wasn't a fan.

I've been a life long Ford man until I bought my current 2011 Chevy 2500HD 6.0 gas 4-wd pickup.

Fully loaded my camper weighs 4000 lbs and my truck has zero suspension or any other upgrades. 220,000 miles and still running the factory brakes and the only repair so far was a new fuel pump at 180,000 miles.

We have a 2017 and '18 F-250s here at the park. Both regular cabs with 6.2L gas and they ride harder than a 1960 Dodge 3/4 ton PU.

Chevy's 6.6 is not the far behind Ford's 7.3 as far as power goes. I'd look at both and buy the one that my butt felt best sitting in.

I will never own a 1/2 ton or Ram PU.

 

[mk70ss]

Gotta be a diesel for me. Not many gassers are hauling our horse trailer fully loaded.

 

[rubiranch]

the horrible 6.0 and 6.4 motors.

Amen.




Here's my work truck, a 2009 F-450 with the 6.4. Biggest *** to ever hit the pavement.

165,000 miles and the engine has been replaced twice at the dealer with new factory Ford engines.

Nearly $20,000 in repairs in the last 3 years in only 10,000 miles. Why the lease company hasn't replaced it yet is beyond everybody.

"Cleaning exhaust filter" towing that snowcat up the canyon is a joke, 18 mph. I loath that pile of junk.

 

[rubiranch]

The investigation will show you were overweight and that liability will get hung on you. Your insurance company might even walk away.

This comes up in RV forums quite often and no one has ever been able to post a link where a private individual was held liable for being over weight with an RV in an accident.

Commercial yes, private no.

Not saying it has never has happened or never will just no one so far has provided a good link.

Overloading is never a good thing.

 

[Chukar60]

I have been towing trailers most of my adult life.
Up until last year I drove Ford diesels. Mostly 7.3L turbos. They are a tough and reliable motor. My last diesel was a 6.7L 2014. The thing was a beast and would out tow a 7.3 without effort. I can say this without hesitation because I still have two 7.3L in my work fleet. There is no comparison.
Gas engines are cheaper and they dispense some respectable power. The issue is longevity of the motor. The gasser will work much harder to tow any load than a diesel will.
My second 7.3 was a 96 that I bought with 125K on it. I drove that truck for 11 years and when I finally sold it, there were 560,000+ miles on on it. Last time I saw the truck it was still owned by the person I sold it to and had over 700K miles on it and still going strong. No replaced engine, no rebuild.
It is the longevity of the motor that makes a diesel a better choice for a tow rig. Yes you do recover the extra $ to buy one if you hang on to it.

 

[dave1918a2]

I bought My 96 F 250 in Dec 96 used. Had 22K. 7.3 diesel. Towed a 8K fifth wheel. Not often. Set the cruise at 80 and never look beck cause every thing is behind. Only 12 MPG doing that. Going elk hunting driving from Denver to Creede with the atv in back and all the camping gear I set the cruise at 67.5 as close as it would set and got 21MPG. We gave up on elk after last season cause the animals are just too big for us 76 year olds so I sold the truck with only 88K miles on it, 12K winch and tonneau cover. Paid 28K got 22.5K. Your Buddy should try an older power stroke first.

 

[VictorLouis]

Imo the bigger issue is the Def and all the emissions garb they put on these things. Not to factor in the higher maintenance costs and god forbid something goes bad they aren't cheap to fix or say replace injectors on.

Fuel costs more and yet they will do better MPG wise, if you crunch the numbers you'll be a long way out before you recoup the fuel consumption difference. Seems these newer modern gassers are better equipped and rated for towing than ever before.

I sold a gun recently to the driver of a V10 Ram. This is exactly what he explained re: his prior diesel Ram. He said he couldn't could recover maintenance cost in fuel savings, alone. Sold her and went back to gas.

 

[Glockman9mm]

I've been a life long Ford man until I bought my current 2011 Chevy 2500HD 6.0 gas 4-wd pickup.

Fully loaded my camper weighs 4000 lbs and my truck has zero suspension or any other upgrades. 220,000 miles and still running the factory brakes and the only repair so far was a new fuel pump at 180,000 miles.

We have a 2017 and '18 F-250s here at the park. Both regular cabs with 6.2L gas and they ride harder than a 1960 Dodge 3/4 ton PU.

Chevy's 6.6 is not the far behind Ford's 7.3 as far as power goes. I'd look at both and buy the one that my butt felt best sitting in.

I will never own a 1/2 ton or Ram PU.

The 6.0's are damn near bullet proof, I'd argue so we're the 5.3's until GM thought AFM was a good idea. I've always thought that Chevys ride the best out of the big three. There's a difference between my half ton and 3/4 ton but not astronomical. End of the day it still rides better than any of the Ford or dodge 3/4 tons I've drove.

You've got a solid truck, lots of people take those motors into the nosebleed milage range. Mine 6.0 only has 50K on it so there's tons of life left. I'd humor a 6.6 down the road after they've proven themselves like the 6.0.

 

[rubiranch]

Reading through here about all these high mileage trucks I'm grateful that they don't build them like they used to.

 

[rubiranch]

The 6.0's are damn near bullet proof

I change the oil & filter every 5000 miles and I still never add any between oil changes.

 

[glenwolde]

This comes up in RV forums quite often and no one has ever been able to post a link where a private individual was held liable for being over weight with an RV in an accident.

Commercial yes, private no.

Not saying it has never has happened or never will just no one so far has provided a good link.

Overloading is never a good thing.

We'd need somebody to do a Lexus/Nexus search to prove it, but the existence of guys like this tells me you could possibly get hung with at least the civil liability. Criminal prosecution is probably highly unlikely.

RV Accident Lawyer - The Killino Firm

 

[LVSteve]

The economics of diesel vs gas depend on how far you are going to travel and in what part of the country. Lots of long distance jaunts means the diesel is the way to go in the long run.

The OP has not given his location so it is difficult to judge the second point. However, if you live in flyover country where gas is often much cheaper than diesel, then stick to gas. Out here in NV regular gas and diesel are much closer in price. I bought diesel at $2.71 this morning, the regular was $2.94.

 

[Jon651]

Long story short my buddy will be in the market in a year or so for a new truck. He bought a 32 foot Bumper pull camper last year and has a older V10 1ton Ram Dually. Truck pulls it fine, the camper is about 8k dry. You can imagine the fuel milage he's getting pulling that hoss, iirc he said about 5MPG.

His furthest trips are every other weekend about a hour and a half away one way. Furthest he went last year was about four hours one way, but he only did that once.

Now fast forward, I think he's getting dead set on a diesel. Personally I think this is a bad idea. This isn't a argument of what pulls better, gas or diesel. If you've ever pulled with both you'll know the answer. If you're out pulling a skid steer day in and day out and certainly near that 12-14k range a diesel makes sense.

My thing is truck prices are through the roof, a base model gas truck will run you 40k at least new, roll with the diesel option and add another 10k no matter what brand you go with. Imo the bigger issue is the Def and all the emissions garb they put on these things. Not to factor in the higher maintenance costs and god forbid something goes bad they aren't cheap to fix or say replace injectors on.

Fuel costs more and yet they will do better MPG wise, if you crunch the numbers you'll be a long way out before you recoup the fuel consumption difference. Seems these newer modern gassers are better equipped and rated for towing than ever before. I have a 2017 2500HD with the 6.0 and 4:10's out back. I can average 12 MPG around town, I've done as good as 16 MPG on the highway and about 10 MPG towing around 8K.

Don't get me wrong I'd love a diesel but I personally can't justify it and I don't think he's thought a lot of this through.

I'm well aware it's not my money nor my problem, just trying to steer a brother away from what I think could be a potential problem.

Thoughts?

1. My 3/4-ton Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab 4x4 with the Duramax diesel will get just north of 21mpg on the highway and 13.5mpg while towing my #8000 travel trailer.

2. When was the last time you actually priced pick-up trucks??? Your friend can expect a pricetag of $70-90K for what he wants.

3. A diesel option isn't only for "how much and how often" you tow. If you keep your trucks for a long time (let's say 10 years) then the diesel makes sense because the truck retains more value. My truck is a 2013 and the trade-in value is still $42-47K - and that's TRADE-IN, so retention of value is definitely a factor.

4. Maintenance costs being much higher for a diesel is an urban myth. I've been driving diesels since the mid-90s and never replaced an injector yet (a 1995, a 2004, and my current 2013). Oil and filters costs exactly the same as gassers, which are now using more costly oils themselves. I only have two maintenance gripes - on my motor the water pump is internal and a real bear to replace, and when I need new batteries I have to get two of the largest ones available at the same time (you never replace only one). Other than using 10qts of oil over 6qts in a typical 350, there is no real difference.

5. For Chevy only that I know of, if you go with the diesel you get the Allison tranny. Right there that is worth the price. You can get them worked on in any truck repair center and they have an external filter for easy changing (especially if you do your own service).

6. And last but not least, during any sort of large-scale natural disaster diesel fuel is always the first to get resupplied so the large trucks can keep running. This is a lesson I learned back in 2004 when we got hit by Hurricanes Charley, Frances and Jean all within 6-7 weeks.

Good luck to your friend on his search for a new truck, regardless of what he ends up with!

 

[Grayfox]

Imo the bigger issue is the Def and all the emissions garb they put on these things.

This right here. The EPA and .gov have hamstrung diesel engines. They ain't what they used to be. I spent my career working on diesel powered trucks and equipment. When it got to the point where you opened the hood and couldn't even see the engine for all the emissions junk hung on it, I knew it was time to retire.
My old work truck was a 1993 F-477 Super Duty with a 7.3 diesel. With all the equipment that was mounted on it it weighed in at 15,000 lbs. That truck didn't even notice the weight and was still my daily work driver when I retired in 2014. It had a few small problems from time to time, but never once did I ever have to go into the engine.
But even as crappy as today's diesels are, they're the best thing for heavy towing. Gasoline just doesn't have the torque.
If you need to do heavy towing, I recommend at least a one ton chassis with the biggest diesel you can get. Fuel mileage will be awful and if needed, repairs will be very costly, but it'll get the job done.

 

[germansheperd]

2 things:
1) The new Godzilla Ford 7.3 gasser for a 2k charge is worth every penny.
2) I learned a long time ago its not how much your truck can tow/haul.........its how its STOPS with a load. That's where these half ton idiots loaded up like a 1 ton get in trouble. The truck can't stop it.

 

[dasnake]

I don't know ........

Has anyone mentioned the engine brake that works so well with deezul, I rely on mine all the time and takes a big load off my mind when going downhill through mountain passes, I don't know for sure but do any gasser transmissions have retarders anymore?

 

[Jon651]

Has anyone mentioned the engine brake that works so well with deezul, I rely on mine all the time and takes a big load off my mind when going downhill through mountain passes, I don't know for sure but do any gasser transmissions have retarders anymore?

Gassers don't have engine retarders like diesels as they don't have enough compression or exhaust back pressure. Gas motors can use a butterfly valve to restrict the intake which provides a small degree of engine braking, but nothing nearly like an exhaust brake.

The one on my Chevy is excellent and I always use it while towing. When combined with the excellent tow/haul mode on the Allison tranny, it is powerful enough that on a 7% decline I can tap the brakes to activate the exhaust brake and my truck will slow down without my foot on the brake pedal while towing my travel trailer.

 

[mtgianni]

My advice is to keep your pull truck a pull only truck. If you need a road truck buy a gasoline one.