Inserting yourself into a shooting can have deadly consequences . . .

[BearBio]

I took an "Active Shooter" course for Federal employees taught by Federal Special Agents. One of the plusses was, the SA's knews we were in a conceled carry state ("Shall Issue") and spent time talking about what to do when off duty (We were not allowed to carry on duty).

It was interesting to note that he recommended we put our weapon ON THE GROUND and then LAY ON TOP OF IT. The reason: LE is taught to watch your hands. You do not want anything to make them think you have a weapon in your hand. Clearly tell them there is a weapon underneath you and ASK for instructions.

I do the same when undergoing a traffic stop. I place my hands on the wheel and tell the officer that (1) I have a CCP and (2) how does he want to proceed. Invariably, they ask where is my weapon and where is my wallet (both on right hip, usually). I have only had one officer take my sidearm and he was interested in my G27 concerted to 357 Sig and how did I like it.

Oh, I did have a Riverside County Sherriff look at my custom Colt Trooper one night out in the desert while we were snake collecting.

 

[smithra_66]

I decided long ago not to craft or change my safety plan/strategy based on outlier events.

It seems like all of us are alarmed the hero would pick up the AR after the gunman dropped it. Being that is absolutely NOT what I would do, it is dispositive; I am not at risk for this specific incident.

My policy is to have no firm policy. Decisions are made based on the best information possessed at the time. That said, I would never walk away from such an event happening before me, knowing I had the means to stop it. If it means I go to be with the Savior, so be it.

Well said. I'm glad the guy in the church didn't have this attitude of "well, it ain't me, so let everyone else die."

He exterminated the rat quickly, thank God.

Using anecdotal, outlier events to make firm assertions is what the left does. The bottom line is that we must all assess our current situation in real time. There is no way to predict the future and our world is very complex.

That's precisely why we have the 2nd Amendment in the first place....

 

[smithra_66]

We all have opinions. Mine is that having a lot more completely untrained people on the streets with guns will have a net result of more unnecessary injuries and deaths. I'm not in charge of this stuff, and have no urge to be.

No one can "train" for something like this in a CCW safety course. At the end of the day, we all have to use our common sense. I'm sorry that it isn't nice and pretty and laid out. It never could be.

The art of self defense is a LIFELONG course. you're not going to cover anything more than the basics of firearms safety in one of those "ccw training" courses. They are what, a few hours or a day at MOST?

Come on.

Just like our driving tests don't cover every situation we'll encounter. I've learned how to drive in the last 25 years of actually DRIVING, not in the hour I spent with my instructor who gave me my license when I was 16.

People have free will. We can't bubble wrap everything and make it "safe."

Just not reality.

 

[biku324]

The problem is your opinion favors restricting the rights of others and is backed by absolutely no data. We've had plenty of time to see your concerns realized, but the data point you've got here is an argument against you.

We've got a guy with CCW training arguably making a tragic wrong choice, we've got a cop who is trained making the wrong choice and shooting him, what's the argument against allowing people to carry a gun without costly and time consuming restrictions here?

Well, as I mentioned, it's only my opinion. I just don't favor Constitutional Carry. My experience with people doesn't lead me to have confidence that even most will perform reasonably with a firearm under extreme stress. People regularly get mad, scared, emotional and make bad decisions.

 

[smithra_66]

Well, as I mentioned, it's only my opinion. I just don't favor Constitutional Carry. My experience with people doesn't lead me to have confidence that even most will perform with a firearm under extreme stress. People regularly get mad, scared, emotional and make bad decisions.

Yep. That's called life. We are all free to make our own bad decisions. No government mandated program can stop people from "not performing well" in certain situations.

You must be terrified driving if you are worried about some people carrying guns.

If a few hours of basic firearms training once in their life changes your opinion on whether someone is capable of carrying a firearm, I'd have to question your premise.

 

[waffles]

Well, as I mentioned, it's only my opinion. I just don't favor Constitutional Carry. My experience with people doesn't lead me to have confidence that even most will perform reasonably with a firearm under extreme stress. People regularly get mad, scared, emotional and make bad decisions.

Cool, just know the data (or lack thereof depending on how you see it) says you're wrong, so when you keep posting it people are going to keep noting that it's incorrect. I can have the opinion that a clear sky is actually purple, doesn't make it so.

 

[biku324]

We all live with laws with which we don't agree. Constitutional Carry is just such for me. I'm not angry about it, I just don't agree with it. Fair enough?

 

[delcrossv]

Well, as I mentioned, it's only my opinion. I just don't favor Constitutional Carry. My experience with people doesn't lead me to have confidence that even most will perform reasonably with a firearm under extreme stress. People regularly get mad, scared, emotional and make bad decisions.

So, cops/federal agents/etc. aren't people? Interesting.

 

[biku324]

That's just bizarre, or perhaps trite.

 

[smithra_66]

We all live with laws with which we don't agree. Constitutional Carry is just such for me. I'm not angry about it, I just don't agree with it. Fair enough?

It likely doesn't even make much difference. Most people who wish to CCW already have a permit. Most criminals who carry illegally have no concern for carry laws.

Also many states don't have a training requirement even with their CCW licensure.

It's just not a big deal. The main thing it does is help with reciprocity during travel between states and it reduces the amount of snooping the gub'mint can do on gun owners.

Both should be loudly applauded by most gun owners (and is).

 

[Mainsail]

Well, as I mentioned, it's only my opinion. I just don't favor Constitutional Carry. My experience with people doesn't lead me to have confidence that even most will perform reasonably with a firearm under extreme stress. People regularly get mad, scared, emotional and make bad decisions.

Based on....?

Police officers are trained, far better than is required in any state for concealed carry. If you accept this as a fact, move to:

If police officers (with considerably more and better training) shoot the wrong people, then training might not be the panacea we might like to believe it is. If you accept that as fact, move on to:

If the numbers show that police officers, with their more and better training, are making more shooting mistakes than their citizen counterparts, who have very little or no training whatsoever, then by your rationale, police officers should be disarmed.

Those numbers should be based on a percentage, not raw numbers. In other words, it should look at the numbers of shooting mistakes per shooting event, so as not to slant the results away from the police due to them simply being in more shooting events overall.

Based only loosely on my recollection of citizen shooting and police shooting stories I've read, the police are far more likely to put rounds on the wrong person, or aim for the right person and hit the wrong person. One recent event had a "trained" officer shoot her sidearm when she intended to shoot her tazer.

I think we can conclude that this one outlier event (for which we have few details) does not seem to implicate training as much as common sense.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

I don't know if the CWP guy was FACING the 2nd responding cop when that cop shot him. If he was, he might have saved himself if he had looped a CWP badge around his neck before the cop arrived. That's what an off-duty cop would probably have done, and I believe that a CWP-holder would be wise do the same. It could have also helped him avoid being mistaken for a bad guy by some other CWP-holder.

 

[Drm50]

We are in the political bind, including lawlessness because us Baby Boomers were to busy doing our own thing to take civic responsibility. When a vacuum is present their is always something to fill it. We were to much into " do your own thing to see what was creeping up on us".
Live and Let live only go so far before it turns into " give a inch and they take a mile". Now we stand on the edge of ruin.

 

[mtgianni]

Even if the shooter was told to "drop the gun", he had just fired rounds that may have prevented him hearing that. Tough situation in which we can second guess forever but good men are in their graves.

 

[LPD256]

I go with the original premise of Muss Muggins. Protect yourself and family and get out alive. Or suffer the consequences.

 

[biku324]

Based on....?

Police officers are trained, far better than is required in any state for concealed carry. If you accept this as a fact, move to:

If police officers (with considerably more and better training) shoot the wrong people, then training might not be the panacea we might like to believe it is. If you accept that as fact, move on to:

If the numbers show that police officers, with their more and better training, are making more shooting mistakes than their citizen counterparts, who have very little or no training whatsoever, then by your rationale, police officers should be disarmed.

Those numbers should be based on a percentage, not raw numbers. In other words, it should look at the numbers of shooting mistakes per shooting event, so as not to slant the results away from the police due to them simply being in more shooting events overall.

Based only loosely on my recollection of citizen shooting and police shooting stories I've read, the police are far more likely to put rounds on the wrong person, or aim for the right person and hit the wrong person. One recent event had a "trained" officer shoot her sidearm when she intended to shoot her tazer.

I think we can conclude that this one outlier event (for which we have few details) does not seem to implicate training as much as common sense.

Police on duty are involved in far more shootings and more high-risk incidents than Joe or Jane Average. I wonder where your data might be on police shooting the wrong folks?

Again, I'm not proselytizing - I'm content with my views. If there were to be a vote on Constitutional Carry, I'd vote against it.

 

[rjroberts]

During the course for a Concealed Weapons License here in FL, the instructor said, "If involved in a shooting, put your weapon on the ground, get out your CWL and Driver's license, hold them in one hand, and raise both hands." That's assuming the police are on the way; if not, call them first. Don't touch your weapon if you've already holstered it.

The instructor was a former police officer, so he knew what had to go through an officer's mind when arriving on "the scene."

 

[Dvan34]

Another thing to consider is this. If we encounter a similar situation. Just as the LEO came up on the SDS. We may mistakenly intervene by reacting too quickly. This has happens when a civilian comes across a situation and rushes in to defend someone when the police perhaps a plainclothes officer may be on site attempting to make an arrest or defending himself. I have seen comments from some regarding 'fast draws'. The Old West has gone out of style, if it ever was in style. We need to think and consider before we react and engage because whatever we do will affect our lives for good or bad.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I've stayed out of this discussion until now. Everybody has his/her own beliefs and positions, and none of them are really wrong or 100% correct. Except for this. I don't know any law enforcement professional who would endorse or encourage a private citizen to openly display a badge at the scene of an active shooting . . .

I don't know if the CWP guy was FACING the 2nd responding cop when that cop shot him. If he was, he might have saved himself if he had looped a CWP badge around his neck before the cop arrived. That's what an off-duty cop would probably have done, and I believe that a CWP-holder would be wise do the same. It could have also helped him avoid being mistaken for a bad guy by some other CWP-holder.

 

[Flygas]

It's easy to say what you think you might do when you aren't in the moment but you don't really know until you're facing the situation. I can certainly understand those saying they wouldn't want to get involved. And that may be the wise choice. But sometimes adrenaline and instinct take over. In the summer of 2010, my neighbor's house caught fire and she was trapped in an upstairs bedroom. Long story short, I managed to get her out to safety, only seconds before the floor collapsed in the room in which she was in. I know it wasn't a smart move and it's actually a miracle I didn't die in the process. I had absolutely no training in responding to a fire and I did a lot wrong. Believe me, it's NOTHING like they show on TV or the movies! And I acted without thinking clearly or sizing up the situation, I just rushed in. A lot of people acted like I was a hero but in retrospect, I felt in some ways I'd been a fool. Of course, I was glad I was able to get her out safely but it also could have easily gone the other way and we both could have perished. You just never know how you'll respond until you're actually facing the problem.