.45 ACP vs. .45 Auto Rim

[Erich]

I have moonclips for ACP and HKS speedloaders for Auto Rim for a 625. I use HKS and AR for 255 grain LSWC, moonclips and ACP for everything else.

Yet another thing I have in common with my neighbor biku324! And I use a slightly downloaded version of St. Elmer's recipe with those AR rounds (which move right out!).

 

[StrawHat]

Can you recommend some good tools? I see plenty of de-mooning tools that seem to work well. Inserting rounds in the clips is more of a hassle. I see pricey tools that will insert all six with a quick rotation. I'm disinclined to spend $90 on one without some confidence it will work well.

If you are moderately handy with tools you can build your own. The tool I use to unload the cases from the moon clip is a piece of 1/2 thiwall tubing. One end has a lip cut in it to fit between the cases. Slip the tube over a case and twist. The case pops out.

I built various loaders that would squeeze one round in at a time. I was happily loading some moon clip when Pop came over and saw what I was doing. He wanted to help and then promptly disappeared. When he returned, he had a large pair of water pump pliers. He grabbed some moon clips, some loose rounds and started to squeeze them in two at a time. He was something else!

So, there are a couple of inexpensive tools for you to consider.

Kevin

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

They also made and maybe you can still buy 1/3(2 rd) moon clips.

 

[Oldsalt66]

My 625-8 PC chambers and fires .45 ACP with or without moon clips.

Without moon clips the cartridges headspace on the case mouth and ignition is 100% reliable.

To remove the fired cases from the charge holes, all I do is flick the extractor rod and the cases fall roughly halfway out, then I flick them out the rest of the way with a fingernail.

It's a fairly quick process, but moon clips are convenient as well as the fastest means of reloading a revolver.

I prefer Ranch moon clips and have no problem de-mooning with the plain old tool.

 

[StrawHat]

They also made and maybe you can still buy 1/3(2 rd) moon clips.

Ranch Products in Malinta Ohio makes them and sells them.

Kevin

 

[steelslaver]

I got some 1/3 moon clips thinking they would be better for pocket carry of reloads, but the 1/2 moons are almost as flat in your pocket and easier to reload with. 4 1/2 moons take up way less room than 2 loaded full moons and way less than 2 speed loaders and no big bulge in pocket.

 

[zeke]

I do not believe any of the S&W revolvers were produced without chambers cut in the charge holes. The problem, in some, is the depth of the chamber to the mouth of the cartridge was excessive.

Of course, I have not handled the all!

Kevin

edited to correct the statement to " …don't believe any revolvers were produced withOUT chambers…"

Well, if memory serves, and the older i get sometimes it doesn't serve very well, about 20 years ago did not buy a M625 because the cylinder chambers did not have a headspace ledge cut into the chamber. It did have the chamber cut, but had a leade cut to transition to the chamber mouths. Do not recall the exact model, but it was in a gun store being presented as brand new.

Sent S&W an email to inquire if they ever produced and sold a 45 acp M625 without the headspace ledge. If they answer, will copy the answer here.

 

[Nesmith]

Just a thought . . . .

Before I make the next trek into town, I think I'll measure the thickness of my full-moon clips and stop by the hardware store with a few empty 45 acp cases to see what diameter e-clip might turn those cases into home-made AR cases. As I said, just a thought. I generally use loose rounds in my Model 26 and Model of 1950 Army. They index just fine and usually just fall out for reloading.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

You can also buy 1/3 moon clips that work very well.

 

[Jellybean]

Reloading manuals claim the reason SAAMI list two different pressures for the ACP and AR is because of their system to determine them.

They look at all the factory loads and firearms made up to that time for a particular cartridge and set the limits to what they feel is safe for any firearm that might be encountered. Since there was only one factory load for the AR cartridge, which used a low pressure and velocity due to the soft bullets fouling cylinders and barrels, they had no choice but to go with it.

 

[Krogen]

Heads up for any 45 Auto Rim users. In this thread we've noted that brass is hard to come by. Starline shows it on their website but as "out of stock / no backorders at this time." I don't think anybody else is making it anymore.

I called Starline to inquire when they might make another batch. A very pleasant lady told me they were just finishing up their calibration run and brass should be available in about 3 weeks. I asked if I needed wait for it to show up on the website. Nope! she said, and took my order. Easy peasy!

So, if any of you are looking for .45 AR, here's your chance!

 

[rockquarry]

Heads up for any 45 Auto Rim users. In this thread we've noted that brass is hard to come by. Starline shows it on their website but as "out of stock / no backorders at this time." I don't think anybody else is making it anymore.

I called Starline to inquire when they might make another batch. A very pleasant lady told me they were just finishing up their calibration run and brass should be available in about 3 weeks. I asked if I needed wait for it to show up on the website. Nope! she said, and took my order. Easy peasy!

So, if any of you are looking for .45 AR, here's your chance!

Starline makes good Auto Rim brass. I think you're right; looks like no one else makes it anymore. I bought some Remington Auto Rim about fifteen years ago, but haven't seen any of that for sale in a long time.

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

Is this the RCBS Universal priming tool with the jaws? I bought two of these several years ago; neither would seat primers with 100% reliability. Additionally, more effort than usually necessary with a hand priming tool was required. I returned both. Perhaps I just got a couple of bad ones. The older RCBS tool requiring a shell holder was a much better priming tool.

That's the one. I still use it and it works great for my purposes. Much faster than priming on my press.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Why force yourself to choose ...cartridge-wise.
So, for .45 revolvers they're all good: 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, heck, I even like making brass for 455 Eley!

You're preaching to the choir.

I'll admit it, I'm polyammous. The more the better.

Heck, I like different cartridges so much I made one just for my 45ACP revolvers.

Enter the 45 Winchester Short Magnum (45WSM). (That's what I'm calling it for now anyway. )

You get there by trimming a Starline 45 Winchester Magnum (45WM) rimless case (1.198") down to 45 S&W Schofield length (1.100") & reaming the 45ACP cylinder's chambers to the appropriate length to accommodate the extra case length using a standard 45ACP reamer. That's it.

And "Yes", the case mouth can headspace on the chamber's shoulder so moonclips are optional.

Here's my complete forum thread on it: 45WSM

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[sodacan]

Can you recommend some good tools? I see plenty of de-mooning tools that seem to work well. Inserting rounds in the clips is more of a hassle. I see pricey tools that will insert all six with a quick rotation. I'm disinclined to spend $90 on one without some confidence it will work well.

I shoot five different revolvers in 45acp, and I use them almost exclusively with moonclips. There are plenty of homemade gadgets and less expensive tools than the BMT tool that I use, but this things works great at loading and unloading the clips. For me it was money spent. Furthermore, every clip stays stays straight by using it. I've been using the same clips for years.

 

[gwpercle]

The simple answer is the difference is in the firearms they are designed for

45 acp is for the Colt 1911 semi-auto and it's relatively low pressure .

The 45 Auto Rim is for the Large N-Framed revolver - 1917 of both Colt and S&W ... these can handle higher pressure loads and handloaders like to take advantage of this .
Gary

 

[rvolvr]

Imagine, requiring a shell holder for each specific cartridge you load for. The nerve of them!

I de-prime my 45ARs just like any other cartridge & the Universal primer arm on my RCBS JR3 works on everything I reload. Don't know how the Rock Chucker is different in that regard?

.

And they have the nerve to charge $6.99 (MSRP) for that shell holder!

The Rock Chucker is no different - the #8 Shell Holder is all that's required.

 

[James K]

A long thread about moon clips but I'll throw in my experience with my 1917 Army Model. I used the half-moon clips but thought they were more of a hassle than loading without and I have no need to speed load this gun. My understanding is the 1917 does not require clips and I've never noticed a difference in shooting with or without.

I did buy the below full moon clips just because, and I do use them back and forth. I use the dowel for both extraction of single casings (no clips) and removal of the casings from the clips. Just slide it in and twist/pull. I may put on leather gloves to not cut my fingers while holding the clip edges, but it works for me.

 

[ReloadforFun]

While I cannot presently point to a source, I seem to recall reading that the original 45 AR cases were of balloon head construction. If so, this is a weaker case design and may account for the 45 AR having a lower pressure specification than the 45 Auto.

 

[rockquarry]

While I cannot presently point to a source, I seem to recall reading that the original 45 AR cases were of balloon head construction. If so, this is a weaker case design and may account for the 45 AR having a lower pressure specification than the 45 Auto.

My first load manual, Speer #6 (published 1964) as well as Speer #7 (1966) has .45 Auto Rim data using cast bullets in both folded head ("balloon" head) cases and solid head cases. Comparison of data indicates some powder capacity increase with the roomier and older folded head brass over modern brass. Loads shown are pretty warm and I'm reasonably sure the data was not pressure tested. However, the loads were apparently deemed safe by Speer technicians who tested them in an S&W 1955 revolver.

I've been handloading since about the time the mentioned Speer manuals became available and don't recall ever seeing any folded head brass. I don't know how long it's been since it was manufactured, but I probably wouldn't use any of it if I did run across some. Aside from any strength factor, powder charges would require at least a moderate increase to get the same velocity obtained in solid head brass.