J-Frames and 25yard qualifications

[blues7]

When I still carried a model 36 as a backup on the job, I'd have to qualify with it quarterly along with my semi-autos and long guns.

Handguns were out to 25 yards, and as I recall, there were only six rounds at that distance. So, it wasn't that bad, especially if you practice a bit.

Good luck.

(These days I carry my J-frame 642-1 around home and walking distances from home, but a larger (compact) semi-auto when I leave home.)

 

[Pointblank2U]

Hammer snag is why GOD invented thumbs. Cover that hammer as you grip the gun and you're good to go. As for ammuntion choices, check out Paul Harrell's YouTube channel. He did some extensive testing with standard pressure 38 Special and snubbies on his "meat targets'. I was shocked at how well the 158 grain round nose lead rounds did. It made me think a lot of the things you heard about that round were hype by ammo companies trying sell more expensive hollow point ammuntion.

 

[Der Verminator]

I'm of the mind that I'll probably choose a glock 42, a J-frame of some flavor, and a 1911 I own.

Before I went to my favorite Model 60 carried IWB.........I had about ten years of pocket carrying a Glock 26.

I always wear the Cabela's hiker pants or shorts and the pockets are big (waist 38) and the fit is loose.

Carried the Glock 26 in comfort. Seriously. No problem.

Of course with dress pants you have to carry different but I rarely dress up.

I eventually switched to IWB cross draw because it's perfect for access when you're driving a car and I drive a lot.

Car jacker survival rate should be zero.

Anyhow, the major point here is, with correct pants you may be able to pocket carry a lot bigger gun than you think.

 

[Der Verminator]

That's one great looking gun!

The no-HPs-allowed-when-carrying state where I live, all of us anticipate a situation where they declare a ton of places "gun free zones."
(And it would stay that way until challenged and brought to probably the circuit court level, because it's a one party rule state)

Benefit of a revolver:
- open cylinder
- eject rounds
(They will likely demand the gun is unloaded. Yes this state is like that.)
- lock in vehicle

I am quite sure that the crazy new NY laws will be struck down by the Supreme Court.......and it won't take long.

BTW.......I don't think I mentioned my grips......Crimson Trace laser grips.

They fit my hand perfectly and reduce felt recoil a lot.

Plus that laser is the best thing yet invented for old eyes in poor light.

Put that on your list of considerations.

 

[Dutch87]

I would think the 640pro would be a good bet because of its sights. If you look at the FBI Q target, any hit in the white area count as a hit, and the size is quite generous, as shown by the image I attached. Given the shooting qualification that has been quoted, you need to get 40 out of 50 hits to pass. Given that standard, you could miss all of your 6 shots at 25 yards and 4 of your 6 shots at 15 yards and still qualify.

From what I understand, they begin the qualification shooting at 25 yards and work in. The psychological effect of this is designed to make you become unnerved as the target becomes closer and you see your long range shooting. This may make you jerk the trigger and fire for your remaining rounds and blow the course. From the looks of the times that I saw elsewhere, there is plenty of time.

For my state, they make you apply for pistol purchase permits for EACH handgun you want. You apply at the police station- It includes a mental health consent form, and 2 references (people you know) that you pick.
Each time.
Permits good for 90 days (and the PD might sit on them a week before issuing them to you), and 1 handgun per month when buying them.

Kind of a pain in the *** and makes planning it out a necessity!

I was thinking about getting a Glock 42 first. I would be floored if I couldn't qualify with that pistol an hour after familiarization with it. (Learning the POI/POA etc).
The J-frame was next.

But I'm starting to think. If I use a J-frame with the first permit, and it turns out I shoot it well enough and REALLY like it?
I might hold off on the glock 42, and instead grab a Model 60 or a 640.
While the 640/60 guns are a little heavy for pocket carry, it's hard to argue with 5 rounds of .357

I would cut my teeth on wadcutters for a good while before moving up to it, but again with the hoops to jump through for each handgun purchase, thinking "long term" is a good idea!

 

[Dutch87]

I'm another believer in the 640 Pro Series. IMHO it's the best J Smith has ever put out. All steel, fantastic sights, internal hammer, and cut for moon clips. If you are unloading and reloading constantly you will appreciate them. This is what I carry all summer long.

I do holster carry though. A Kramer belt scabbard. Very concealable and quick to draw from. With a good belt, you won't even know its there.

Now I'm thinking I might bump the Glock 42 off my list and instead grab a steel J-frame

I should have seen this coming!

At minimum, A model 60 would be excellent for a practice-gun companion to a 637.
Steel frame making it a joy to shoot with 38 wadcutters, learning the J-frame trigger. Then moving to the lighter carry gun to finish practice.

 

[Dutch87]

Hammer snag is why GOD invented thumbs. Cover that hammer as you grip the gun and you're good to go. As for ammuntion choices, check out Paul Harrell's YouTube channel. He did some extensive testing with standard pressure 38 Special and snubbies on his "meat targets'. I was shocked at how well the 158 grain round nose lead rounds did. It made me think a lot of the things you heard about that round were hype by ammo companies trying sell more expensive hollow point ammuntion.

When he did his video on the indiana mall shooting - I remember when he took his handguns out to 40 yards, and I believe he shot a 638 in Double-action with VERY good accuracy.

Oddly enough, that video is why I'm here!
"Okay, so Jerry Miculek can make hits to, wherever he wants with whatever he wants, so that doesn't count.

Harrell can take a J-frame out to some distance - but Harrell is also a good shooter.

What can people with a good-but-mortal skill level do in the real world?"

Brought me to you guys

 

[Dutch87]

I am quite sure that the crazy new NY laws will be struck down by the Supreme Court.......and it won't take long.

BTW.......I don't think I mentioned my grips......Crimson Trace laser grips.

They fit my hand perfectly and reduce felt recoil a lot.

Plus that laser is the best thing yet invented for old eyes in poor light.

Put that on your list of considerations.

I'm thinking whatever J-frame I'd pick up, whether it's a 637/638/642, or the .357 equivalents, they would absolutely wear a CT405.
Fills the hand, takes the bit out of recoil, a good low light aiming assistant, AND for dry-fire snap cap practice?
Lets me see how my trigger control is.

 

[biku324]

Don't forget the M49/649.

 

[rockquarry]

Hammer snag is why GOD invented thumbs. Cover that hammer as you grip the gun and you're good to go. As for ammuntion choices, check out Paul Harrell's YouTube channel. He did some extensive testing with standard pressure 38 Special and snubbies on his "meat targets'. I was shocked at how well the 158 grain round nose lead rounds did. It made me think a lot of the things you heard about that round were hype by ammo companies trying sell more expensive hollow point ammuntion.

There are no figures on how many bad guys and perhaps some good ones met their demise because of the .38 Special round nose load over many decades, perhaps more than with all other .38 Special loadings combined. This was mainly due to the fact that there weren't a lot of ammo choices and this is what almost everyone, including law enforcement agencies purchased.

It's popular to condemn this load and has been for a long time and there is likely better ammo available now, but the 158 roundnose remains effective. A first choice nowadays? Probably not, unless it shoots very well in a particular revolver and the user shoots this loading well.

 

[Der Verminator]

I'm thinking whatever J-frame I'd pick up, whether it's a 637/638/642, or the .357 equivalents, they would absolutely wear a CT405.
Fills the hand, takes the bit out of recoil, a good low light aiming assistant, AND for dry-fire snap cap practice?
Lets me see how my trigger control is.

I don't mind the idea of a .357 Magnum.

The recoil, flash and blast make it virtually unusable in a two-inch J-frame, but you have a variety of .38 Special to choose from and use.

Plenty of good non-hollowpoint plus P .38s available.

If somehow there came a time (some emergency) when .357 was the only ammo you could get your hands on.......it's an option.

As for the CT grips........I HAVE the tiny 405 on one J frame (in case I need maximum concealment) but I never use it now.

It's just too small for the most effective shooting.......it can be done, but there's no reason to fight it unless you have to.

Only time I've carried it has been as a spare second gun.

The big 305 grip is small enough, but also big enough to hold effectively and also mitigate recoil.

The bigger 305 doesn't look cool......but it fits the hand and feels perfect.......and makes for very accurate shooting at all distances.

 

[dave1918a2]

Having shot handgun matches for decades( IPSC, Silhouette, Magnum Matches, ETC.) I have no problem hitting at 25 yards with My model 60. I have even hit clay targets at 100 yards with it. Albeit not every shot. Front sight and squeeze works. Practice, practice, practice. 100 yard shots with a snub nose aren't impossible or practical, but are doable if needed.

 

[Der Verminator]

And as far as this "hammer-snagging" controversy that seems to be building here.....all I can say is it has never bothered me.

Especially when pocket carrying......I found that my thumb and the web of my thumb automatically covered the hammer as I drew.......and I did practice getting it out quickly a lot.

But this you can practice with guns before you own them to see how it works for you.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I can hit a target at 25 yards. I choose not to because it's a waste of time and ammunition. I also practice point shooting, which is a fr more critical skill than distance shooting. Again, as always - YMMV

We all make choices and we often disagree - but that's what makes life fun.

 

[Der Verminator]

I can hit a target at 25 yards. I choose not to because it's a waste of time and ammunition. I also practice point shooting, which is a fr more critical skill than distance shooting. Again, as always - YMMV

We all make choices and we often disagree - but that's what makes life fun.

All practice at all distances is helpful.

It keeps things from getting boring.

Point shooting is a good way to keep yourself humble.......because it's a difficult skill set.

Hard to disagree with that?

 

[Doug M.]

I am old enough that in my academy we had to train and qualify out to the 50. It is a worthwhile endeavor because flaws are more obvious at that distance and confidence goes up with good performance. I'll be having eye surgery in the next couple years because I am old and my eyes are showing it.

If you shoot well with a J frame, fine. I understand the concept of flexibility and thus getting one that fires .357, but I have no plans to shoot .357 in a J frame and will only do so if that is all there is to shoot. I am big enough and my clothes generally casual enough that I can carry something I shoot better - and I can carry my G33 in a pocket holster in dress clothes.

.38 RNL? Ugh. While it is probable that some part of the historical failure of that round related to the lack of understanding of tactical anatomy, the square shape of a WC or SWC is far better. (I don't want to get shot with anything, but if I have to shoot someone I want to use a round that gives me the best chance of stopping them - if they die next week, that is not important if they can still continue the acts that justified shooting them.) Most of the time in my M66 I carry standard velocity .38 SWC. The improvement in practical accuracy shown when I do my retired qualification tells me that it is a good choice.

 

[Pizza Bob]

Dutch:

From your OP and your statement about the prohibition of hollowpoints, means that you have to be from NJ. If you do not want to qualify at 25 Yards, find someplace else to do your qualification. In the actual statute there is no requirement for qualification, just that you demonstrate safe firearm handling.

The NJSP think that means shooting a live fire course and have generated a form to record/report your results - HOWEVER, there is no prescribed course of fire for the qualification, so different entities within the state are using various courses of fire - many of them at 15 yards and under (a more realistic distance for an armed civilian). At 25 yards you most likely would have the ability to leave the scene without engaging. You are not a LEO. Your CCW permit is for you and those immediately around you (family). Seek out someone else to do your qualification.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[m&p2.0fdethumbsafety]

big problem with most revolvers is that the grip to muzzle ratio is disproportionate. the fulcrum and center of balance is off. with an m&p shield or m&p 2.0 compact 3.6 inch, the ratio is 1 to 1. with a revolver, it's usually 2:1 or3:1.


the ideal carry revolver thus has to be shaped like this. but the 327 is oversized. i would shrink it down to a k frame with 6 shot capacity instead

 

[rct269]

Admittedly this was a looooooooong time ago, with a Chiefs Special Target (square butt/two inch), but I used to make a habit of bad mouthing low scores in Bullseye matches-------saying things like "I can shoot better than that with my snub-nose!". That sort of thing was often met with, "Oh yeah, for how much?". The race was on!! It should be noted this sort of thing only worked out of town---I didn't get much action at home after the first couple of tries.

All this foolishness was at 25 yards----and was NO PROBLEM!!

Practice makes perfect---or close enough.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[StrawHat]

…Point shooting is a good way to keep yourself humble.......because it's a difficult skill set…

Perhaps I am missing something, point shooting is a difficult skill set?? How so?

Kevin