Tyler T-Grips and the Oklahoma Attorney General

[Jäger1]

You stabbed at multiple issues.

I am? You're flopping around like a fish out of water, moaning and personally criticizing a member here about "his crusade" against "targeted" businesses, while insinuating that the police where Tyler is located could be overwhelmed investigating murders and violent crimes. To use a word you're familiar with, that's repeatedly being disingenuous.

Deflecting, it would seem, to make excuses for abysmal business practices including refusing to to acknowledge, much less honor, requests for refunds.

As to your Appeal To Authority argument (you learned about attempting that in debate while in university as I did, right?) based on policing and prosecution experience: I can play in that arena as well.

After also doing lots of police work in both small rural towns and major cities, I know that generally speaking, there's LOTS of criminal complaints that local police and the prosecutors don't really want to do much about, including when they have plenty of time, and minor fraud complaints would be one of them. BORING... just more paperwork, for some sucker who they usually believe should have known better.

After all, if they weren't the victim, the victim wasn't somebody they cared about, it doesn't offend them in some way and it isn't going to make the news... nothing really pushes them to do anything (unless there's multiple complaints). And it certainly doesn't hurt if the potential offender somehow or other is seen favorable to some extent by the local police. Ever wonder about those prominent police benevolent association stickers you see on the backs and near the drivers' window of cars in some cities?

Feel free to assure everyone your experiences in policing and prosecution were the opposite of mine.

It is true that you cannot prove a negative, but if some police department sent Tyler an order for some of his grips, paid for with a check written on a PD or police union bank account, I have a hard time believing they'd be waiting well over a year while Tyler was unresponsive to any communications they attempted regarding their order or a request for a refund.

Feel free to tell everybody you believe they'd have the same exact waiting time - after all, you know there's no crime there, it's not criminal, so why would Tyler treat them any different?

You have a personal relationship or interest in the wellbeing of this indifferent and abusive business it would appear. So much so that you would attack somebody who decides to do something about the abuse, rather than accept it.

That's fine: you criticize him and what he's doing. I'll criticize you and how you're working so hard to defend this abusive business.

 

[Law-dog]

Hmmm....I just wonder if I can get on the list though without paying him first and letting him sit on my money for a year and a half? I can guarantee you that he would tell you to pound sand unless he had the money in hand.

Imagine if you ordered ten sets from him, PAID him, and then he died 15 months later....I don't think a stop-payment on the check or a fraud investigation would carry much weight after almost two years of waiting....Anyone with a brain cell would simply ask you why you waited so long to complain.

If you have not guessed, I tend to spoof a bit. At the same time, I have been the guy that sent lots of bad guys to prison. I have been the local cop, the investigator and the prosecutor. I know the costs to the system of using the criminal justice system to punish people. I just think a crusade to get criminal charges filed to force a change to a small business is not an appropriate use of tax dollars or the system.

In Oklahoma, our Attorney General announced 2 years early, he is running for governor and has already filed charges against several roofing companies and construction companies who have ripped people off of their life savings, it is appropriate. But for some $100 item, we might call that an abuse of process. That said, I have been appointed a special prosecutor by former Attorney Generals, several times, they are great people over there, they officed next door to me for a decade. On all of the cases where I was appointed by the former AGs, it was because I was prosecuting an attorney, a police officer, or someone connected to an elected official and my job was to aggressively pursue those defendants, without any issue of conflict of interest or favoritism or any of that nonsense. I am guessing but I have probably prosecuted more law enforcement or lawyers than anyone you will ever meet. I was asked to volunteer because of my reputation as a strait shooter. I made lots of enemies, I suppose but I did it right. Integrity matters.


On these complaints, they AG and staff will be nice and responsive to all complaints. They are running an aggressive campaign for Governor. This AG was a former fighter pilot, extremely wealthy, heir to one of the biggest ranches in the nation, you would know the name, and he will be the next Governor.

If they get this pile of complaints the OP is requesting, they may very well file charges, that said, it is unlikely they will charge a felony. Why? Because each case or order must be at least $1,000
as a theft, or if they claim he has embezzled the money from his order intake amounts, each order must total $15,000.00.

So, if you get ripped off for $999, there is not much an AG can do, except beat the guy up with the process and try and force some change of business practice. The AG in small cases is then using the power of his office as extortion, if it does not meet that minimal amount by law. It may be legal to do that, I am not sure it is moral. There may be 50 or 100 guys out there that have paid $44 for an item, or maybe $444, we have no clue.

I spoof it a bit, because it is a pretty small event in the big scheme of things. A bunch of people might lose $100 each, or they may have to wait 2 years to get some special order product. It is not the crime of the century.

Normally, a fraud investigation starts with a police report. And contrary to what many commentators on here do not understand, there is no Newalla Police Department as far as I know and doubt there ever has been. Newalla is the name of a community, an area that has it's own zip code, so if you live in that area, you use the Newalla post office. The area is inside the Oklahoma City, city limits, the 8th largest land mass city in the US, at one time the second largest on the planet. Only about 20-25 miles out there but not a destination for anybody.

You are correct about the brain cells. Getting on any waiting list for one guy to provide something that has not been built and will not for 6 months or more... ---you are probably correct....if we all used out brain cells, we probably would not do that.

And I think you are also correct, that you may have waited too long under your credit card terms, claiming a fraud 6 months or a year later, is not likely to work. Because your credit card company is not going to give you money, unless you prove the fraud.

A point of advice here, everybody probably knows, but I will repeat. Never ever use a check for paying for something in another state. Many reasons, they have your account number and if they are crooks it will end up on the dark web.

Second, never, ever use a debit card or anything that lets them immediately deduct funds from your bank account.

Three, always use a traditional credit card, and only Visa and Mastercard. The reason is they have huge fraud departments and their terms usually do not require you to file a police report, usually, they trust your affidavit alone.

For products like these, trigger shoes, T Grips and the like, most of us just buy a similar item from China. But some people want the real deal for artistic or nostalgic purposes, or whatever their own desires. I get that.


So, this ongoing ordeal has prompted my greed gene. I am talking with others about a plan of ordering a bunch of them from him, I know it is a risk, but I will take it, I am going to resell them new in the box for $100.00 each. No one with a brain should pay that, but I am pretty sure I can get at least $75 for them, then maybe make $2-$4 on the shipping charge I bump up a little. And if I guarantee a 10 day delivery, lots of people will jump on that. So, if I order a 100 and make $40 each off of old guys, that is $4,000.00. I could then buy a few nice handguns for that. If it works, I could maybe make $4,000.00 every year from now one. Not a lot, but easy money because they are so desirable to many. I guess I could advertise on the forum. Make a little money and many people would be overjoyed at getting the real deal in 10 days.

If he dies or was forced into bankruptcy then we lose our investment of course, but if one of us does it right, any loss would be a tax right off.

I have no clue how he would react to an order of 50 for J frames and 50 for K frames. Maybe he will add a helper for the summer. Or maybe he would shut down the trigger shoe manufacturing, lots of us still find a use for those on long distance rifle shooting. They take a 2 pound trigger down to a near invisible trigger break. They are no longer needed with the fine accu-triggers and similar sold by Savage, but old guys firing Weatherby Mark Vs. like them. We like the look and we like the feel and it tells others we are all about the real deal, regardless of the cost or utility. We like those vintage Redfield range finding scopes on them too, they are the real deal. Like old muscle cars, some people just like them.

In my case, we will not have a customer service line, if you do not like it, ship it back at your expense and I will replace it within 30 days, there will never be money back. Customers will sign a statement to that agreement on the order form.

There will not be a customer service line or email to tie up --me. If you check ebay and amazon, there are places that do not accept returns, ever, people contract for that when they order. The only way to make money from on line sales is volume and never spending time talking to people.


Once upon a time, I was an avid fisherman. Locally and at Walmart you can find "genuine" Canadian night crawlers, for fishing bait, they are the big ones. Do they really ship them in from Canada? Is it worth the extra gas to go get them and the extra cost and tax? I dunno. Some people insist on the real deal, to me a worm is just a worm.

So, I am retired, I can sit around and read these issues all day long. Decades ago, I enjoyed the SW forum because it seems there were not too many of us. We collected only pin barreled guns and we spent lots of time trashing hillary locks. I suppose those days are gone.

That said, I have new Smith and Wessons, the 5.7 has not even been fired yet, not normally my cup of tea, we shall see.

 

[Jäger1]

You cited the Ciener case and provided a link to the arrest, a newspaper article. Why did you not include the whole truth>? The DA dropped that case like a hot potato...

You can get your own personal copy of the order throwing out the case by going to the Brevard county court website and paying $1.

Does it say "hot potato" somewhere in that transcript you purchased so you could read it before putting up that post? You DID actually buy that transcript, rather than just telling me I could do that, right?

Why did you not include mentioning that that the DA dropped the charges right about the time Ciener either refunded or filled the orders of those who had registered those criminal complaints? You know... include the whole truth?

Was that simply a coincidence that Ceiner did that while the DA dropped the charges, with each being unaware of the actions of the other?

Or did the DA agree the easiest and least expensive option for both the complainants and local taxpayers was to drop it as soon as Ceiner convinced he/her that he was immediately shipping the products, issuing refunds, or in some other way making the complainants whole?

While it would seems you think of Ciener as being the victim of "targeting" by multiple "crusaders" who went to police after the goods they purchased were not delivered and demands for refunds were ignored, the fact of the matter is the people who made those complaints got what they wanted after Ciener was charged, whether or not he was convicted.

I would call that a good thing - including that Ciener's operations after that were much more legitimate. Deterrence... it doesn't have to involve a trial and finding of guilt where the CJS is involved.

It seems odd to me (only having dealt with prosecutors, not having been one) that a prosecutor would wrongfully file, not just one, but MULTIPLE wrongful charges of fraud.

Particularly after you have assured us that circumstances like these do not contain all the necessary elements of the crime of fraud at either the federal or state level. One mistake of a prosecutor wrongfully deciding this is fraud when it isn't, that I can see. Multiple repetitions of the exact same errors in law, involving the same subject, not so much.

No prosecutor wants to pointlessly do the paperwork and put in the time involved in the procedures to charge a crime where the elements of the crime are not there, and thus their prosecution is doomed from the beginning. Prosecutors are no different in this than police who generally think the same way.

That out of the way, you omitted providing your explanation for how either Ciener or Tyler has a special exemption from your prosecutor's Big Boy And Big Girl Rule that pertains to time limits for vendors to deliver on purchases and/or demands for a refund?

A reminder for you:

16 CFR 435.2 Mail, Internet, or telephone order sales.

 

[Bald1]

OP, and Robert Walsh you are not wrong. In the past 5-6 yrs I’ve bought 4 T Grips. 2 came within weeks. 1 took about 4 months. I’m currently waiting on a Bronze N frame T grip since Feb 2024. 16 months is BS. I’ve been contemplating my options. I think I’ll try the OK state route as well as USPS route. I understand they probably don’t sell a ton a bronze N frame grips. They want to get a lot of orders before making a run. But you know what? Not my problem. If you can’t or won’t fill the order don’t offer them for sale. 6 months might be acceptable because they are this quirky little company and anything worth having is worth waiting for. But 16 months. No way !

 

[MN Rifleman]

Hmmm....I just wonder if I can get on the list though without paying him first and letting him sit on my money for a year and a half? I can guarantee you that he would tell you to pound sand unless he had the money in hand.

Imagine if you ordered ten sets from him, PAID him, and then he died 15 months later....I don't think a stop-payment on the check or a fraud investigation would carry much weight after almost two years of waiting....Anyone with a brain cell would simply ask you why you waited so long to complain.

Well said

 

[Law-dog]

I am? You're flopping around like a fish out of water, moaning and personally criticizing a member here about "his crusade" against "targeted" businesses, while insinuating that the police where Tyler is located could be overwhelmed investigating murders and violent crimes. To use a word you're familiar with, that's repeatedly being disingenuous.

Deflecting, it would seem, to make excuses for abysmal business practices including refusing to to acknowledge, much less honor, requests for refunds.

As to your Appeal To Authority argument (you learned about attempting that in debate while in university as I did, right?) based on policing and prosecution experience: I can play in that arena as well.

After also doing lots of police work in both small rural towns and major cities, I know that generally speaking, there's LOTS of criminal complaints that local police and the prosecutors don't really want to do much about, including when they have plenty of time, and minor fraud complaints would be one of them. BORING... just more paperwork, for some sucker who they usually believe should have known better.

After all, if they weren't the victim, the victim wasn't somebody they cared about, it doesn't offend them in some way and it isn't going to make the news... nothing really pushes them to do anything (unless there's multiple complaints). And it certainly doesn't hurt if the potential offender somehow or other is seen favorable to some extent by the local police. Ever wonder about those prominent police benevolent association stickers you see on the backs and near the drivers' window of cars in some cities?

Feel free to assure everyone your experiences in policing and prosecution were the opposite of mine.

It is true that you cannot prove a negative, but if some police department sent Tyler an order for some of his grips, paid for with a check written on a PD or police union bank account, I have a hard time believing they'd be waiting well over a year while Tyler was unresponsive to any communications they attempted regarding their order or a request for a refund.

Feel free to tell everybody you believe they'd have the same exact waiting time - after all, you know there's no crime there, it's not criminal, so why would Tyler treat them any different?

You have a personal relationship or interest in the wellbeing of this indifferent and abusive business it would appear. So much so that you would attack somebody who decides to do something about the abuse, rather than accept it.

That's fine: you criticize him and what he's doing. I'll criticize you and how you're working so hard to defend this abusive business.

We can bump chests and post resumes all day long, but that does not change the facts. For the record, I there is no Tyler involved in this process for decades. My understanding is that some nephew got permission years ago to take over the process, from the few remaining heirs at the time.

As I reported, I last talked to Melvin Tyler around 1986 maybe later, the business in north Oklahoma City has been gone for decades. It was a small shop, ran by Melvin, often the only guy there. It was frequented by cops, we carried SW wheel guns in the 1970s. Lot of us put them on J Frames. The trigger shoes were also a big deal, for long distance shooting, and it was critical to get the perfect fit, and did not slip off. You might see them on SWAT rifles. And as stated, Melvin made a custom left handed lined holster for me as a gift to my buddy for his SW model 39. The company closed, it was over.

Then by so much demand, the nephew affiliated with some gun shop in SW Oklahoma City. I went there once, prices were insane, I never went back. Then years later, the nephew started producing a few from his farm in the community known as Newalla.

Oklahoma Shooters, a group I belong to reported they had over 500 pending orders suddenly show up and would be processed in the order received. But that was before the tornado, in 2021 or 2022 as I recall.

Many people on this forum just decided not to wait and bought an alternative, everybody on this forum was aware.



And as to the local police, there is none, it is not really even a town, it only has 5 streets. Google it, be aware, you may not find it.





And to be clear, I have never met any of those people and never will, I am not near there and not able to travel due to military service.

To short circuit this, there is a reason most people do not disclose they are attorneys on forums. The reason is because it takes too much time to explain why this or that does not apply, and everyone on the net is somehow a legal expert. For example, Jaeger cited

16 CFR 435.2 Mail, Internet, or telephone order sales.

What Jaeger probably did is just play Google. That is a federal statute. The Constitution is pretty clear. Only the federal government can enforce federal law, Texas tried to enforce immigration law not long ago, the Supreme Court slapped them down, saying nobody can enforce federal law but the feds, to do so violates the Constitution.


So, citing the internet protect act is a worthless discussion, unless you go to the feds. An AG can site it or refer to it if he has some legitimate grounds to file criminal charge, but no state prosecutor or judge can allow that CFR to be used as justification for a criminal charge.

And just to be accurate. The CFR are not laws passed by Congress, they are agency rules that apply because Congress has delegated the day to day rule making to agencies. It is federal law, and perhaps a complaint to the FTC might work, but I doubt it. Why? Because federal agencies will not prosecute minor cases, try it an report back. You simply do not understand what happens in the real world. Please file it and let us know, so your superior legal knowledge is understood by the rest of us.

And keep in mind that every state law is different. What might be filed in New York or Florida and California is often not like what the law might be in Oklahoma or Georgia. Any body posting a reply normally has no clue what applies in the other state outside of theirs, and their comments are often, just wrong. And take too much time for an attorney to explain it to them, so you should never rely on a form comment, unless the players are all in the same state and understand the law of that state. When you access a government website for example, their website information is not law, it is just a summary of what they think the public needs to know. And when you read the law, you need to remember that written law you just read, may already have been altered by case law. Never expect to read a law, and expect it to be fully accurate, that is why we have case law precedence.

And to be clear, nothing about working in a small police department is relevant, except it tells the guy who worked there what cases the DA at the time will or will not accept. There are very few laws that requires a DA to file any charge at all, they get to decide based on case load and many factors. When you get hundreds or thousands of complaints each year, you pick and choose.

But since you mentioned it, I spent 23 years 9 months military, Military Police, enlisted and officer, Air Force Special Investigations and Counterintelligence and others. I attended 2 police academies, one special investigations academy, DEA investigations school, and 9 special operations school. I was also a trained hostage negotiator. And then I was a civilian police officer, local and state, attending all of their required training. Too many to post here.

Educationally, I have a 4 year degree in law enforcement, a Masters of Criminal Justice Administration Degree, an MBA and a Juris Doctorate of Laws, and I taught night school at a University, both bachelor and masters courses, for 5 years, night school. Including Constitutional law.

I went to night school about 20 years total, and I have a resume to support that. I ran investigations and prosecution programs for a second career for government agencies including about 7 years as a line prosecutor and concluding as a litigation a manager, supervising 17 contract law firms. My settlement authority was $2 million dollars, meaning I did not have to ask the boss, I made those calls. I paid contract lawyers from about $30,000 per case to over $200,000 per case. When you supervise that level of tax dollars, you scrutinize every penny. Just too much tax money to waste. So you choose cases wisely.

So, when we talk about spending tax dollars to prosecute some small scale business, I understand the issue. If it were me, I would hook up my GPS and go find the guy if I had fronted hundreds of dollars. I get the frustration. I just feel that a campaign to punish the old guy for being a krappy business person is not high on the list or morality of things to do.

So, send all the spears you want my way, I will not be joining in the crowd to try and get him prosecuted or thrown out of business. I am a Christian and just do not separate my personal and buying life, I cannot morally ask that he be prosecuted. Your beliefs may be different and you may want him to suffer or fold. It is just not for me, and I have now expressed it fully. Please do not bother to make a reply, I am done. I live my life and conscious one way, others differently.

Good bye. It has been fun, sort of.

 

[Bald1]

Law Dog, it’s not a matter of punishing someone for being a bad businessman. It’s about punishing someone committing fraud. As for tax dollars. You pursue criminals however big or small they may be. Fraud is fraud.

 

[GypsmJim]

Law Dog, it’s not a matter of punishing someone for being a bad businessman. It’s about punishing someone committing fraud. As for tax dollars. You pursue criminals however big or small they may be. Fraud is fraud.

It appears that SOME people are getting product, though not in a reasonable time. If NOBODY got product, then it would be fraud. Is the business a total FRAUD, then he should be prosecuted. If he is just a p*** poor businessman that is clueless, then he should be encouraged to go out of business and return all the money.

Maybe someone should copy this entire thread and mail it to him. (obviously he gets mail) If he is simply clueless, maybe he will wise up and change in some way.

Since his product and provenance has some clout, maybe he could sell it to someone else (and make money in the process) that would bring the name back to the reverence it once had.

Just idle thoughts of mine.....

 

[majick47]

Not a unique situation, a small mom and pop business operating part time. Pachmayer also made grip adapters in the same time frame as Tyler and then Pachmayer branched out into making rubber grips and other firearms related products. There is still a decent demand for the Tyler T grip adapters and it is not being met by the current producer. Most small companies in this situation are wise enough to realize it's time to sell out to a bigger company that has the resources to mfg/sell the product in the modern market place.

 

[Mannlicher]

I have gotten two sets in the last few years. Both transactions took months. For me, it wasn’t a big deal. Small family company with issues. Eventually I got the items and am pleased, as always, with how they transform a revolver with small grips.

 

[Jäger1]

We can bump chests and post resumes all day long, but that does not change the facts...

Good bye. It has been fun, sort of.

Yes indeed, facts: it was YOU that started strutting your resume as authorative to justify the excuses you're making up to defend Tyler and their business practices.

And not just with me, but with every other poster before me who you disagreed with, while pronouncing anyone who complained about their business practices to be slightly immoral, wasting the time of law enforcement, etc. Nothing immoral about Tyler's business practices in your world. Just those who make complaints about them.

The difference is, I'm just the one who called you on what you know from your lawyer education is a fraudulent Appeal To Authority debate tactic. That's the only difference between me and most of the others you did your pokey-chest dance with.

I'm happy that you report you were entertained by doing that dance. I guess...

 

[Jäger1]

I have gotten two sets in the last few years. Both transactions took months. For me, it wasn’t a big deal.

In my personal opinion, it isn't actually the wait time for the product to arrive. Perhaps not even that this business is repeatedly violating the law.

The difference is how these wait times are dealt with. I have waited well over a year for products like Craig Spegal's grips. The difference with other small manufacturers in the firearms business is this, using Craig Spegal as one example (I haven't had a new handgun requiring his grips in about six years or so, so some things may have changed).

First, when you want to order from Spegal, he usually puts you on a "call" waiting list, where you wait while he keeps up with the demand and orders of those before you. When your turn comes, he calls, you agree on what you want and the price and then the actual purchase begins. You don't sit waiting in silence for over a year, wondering why he refuses to respond to phone calls.

Second, unlike Tyler he DOESN'T take your money the moment you send him an order. In fact, he specifically tells you NOT to send payment with your order. Repeatedly.

And third, if you pick up the phone and call Craig Spegal, Craig Spegal will pick up the phone and talk to you. Probably for longer than he should, as protracted discussions are interesting, but that is time taken away from making the grips that he sells.

Tyler is the complete opposite of small manufacturers like Craig Spegal in all respects. And it's kept him in business and in demand for over 40 years, making by hand a product far more complex than the Tyler products that are machine made.

BTW, the last time I talked with Craig he was in his 60's. I believe his boot grips - and his willingness to customize the grips you order to some extent - makes them the best S&W grips going. I expect some day in the near future to hear on internet forums that Craig Spegal has decided that 40+ years of making revolver and pistol grips by hand, one set at a time is enough. The classic artisans in the handgun world are increasingly deciding it is time to call it a day - we just lost Don Williams a few months ago to retirement in the Browning High Power world.

If you decide you want a set of Spegal grips for your S&W, you should probably give him a call and ask if he has room and time to put you on his "call" list.

 

[Mannlicher]

Nothing wrong with differences of opinion and different reasons for doing business with a given company.