Musings on the M1 carbine

Glenn R. McMannly said:

So no primary source documentation and just conjecture, got it.

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There are a large number of sources that have discussed the Italians issuing only 1 or 2 magazines with the BM59 over the last 40 years I've been interested in the BM59, and logically it stands up to scrutiny.

But by all means balance all that against your "I have a hard time believing...." statement of your inability to change an opinion.

Got it.

Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons did an interview with a so called M1 Carbine expert and he told him: "I have never been able to get any M1 Carbine to function reliably". The experts response was only "Well the standards of reliability were less back in WWII". Why soft soap the truth or try to avoid the truth as it only lessens your credibility in my humble opinion. I only mention this first because I knew the M1 Carbine lovers would crucify me if I mentioned that I too have had the same experiences along with my military collecting friends dating back to the 60's with this weapon that was the MI carbine gas system was never really perfected and the weapon was not reliable.

The M1 Carbine has had a host of problems from the beginning including poor accuracy which was highly criticized by General Patton along with about everyone that used one in WWII.

Its flimsy magazines were so thin and unreliable many G.I.'s never even bothered to fill them back up when empty but simply threw them away. If you ever removed the magazine floor plate they are so soft that its about impossible to avoid bending them which if not straightened out before re-inserting will start to slip out of the bottom of the magazine when firing the weapon causing a jam.

The original power recoil springs were so weak that they were not strong enough to drive the bolt all the way home (forward) which would then cause the gun to misfire if you forgot to bang the op-rod with the palm of your hand and substituting a stronger spring often caused the bolt not to recoil back far enough also causing a jam.

The gas system lock ring had to be staked when assembling it but you could only re-stake them a couple of time before the lock ring would start to back out under recoil. Most people would then panic and then overtighten the ring causing the gas piston housing to then crack and replacing a housing is not for the amature.

The carbine fires a weak anemic oversize pistol round which did not have anywhere near the penetration the 3006 had.

The carbine was actually obsolete even during WWII compared to what the Germans were using like the full auto STG 44 and the post war Russian AK-47

Having said all that the carbine was light in weight which made them a favorite with the post war occupying troops in Germany. The mild recoil also made them a favorite along with its 15 round capacity, almost double that of the M1 Garand and 3 times that of the 1903A3 Springfield of WWII. The small statured Japanese soldiers of WWII loved them and often went to great lengths to capture or take one off of a dead G.I. The carbine was also liked for night guard duty in the Pacific as if you heard a noise you could lay down a lot of firepower quickly as compared to the M1 Garand that had only half the magazine capacity.

Buick said:

Cant describe the carbine or its gas tappet system as weak or unreliable. It's a system that when modified with just a very clever trigger group redesign would run reliably in full auto and was accepted by our military in that configuration. In my experience of the last 40 years of shooting it's a design which is reliable in the extreme and on par with our best military weapons. The fact that it has been in continuous civilian production for 80 years essentially unchanged is also a strong testament to the design.

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Sorry to disagree but I and my friends that have owned original G.I. Carbines since the 1960's and also some commercial models have yet to find even one of these weapons that would fire an entire 15 round magazine without at least 1 jam with original G.I. magazines and that was even with surplus G.I.Ammo which they were designed to shoot.

BB57 said:

There are a large number of sources that have discussed the Italians issuing only 1 or 2 magazines with the BM59 over the last 40 years I've been interested in the BM59, and logically it stands up to scrutiny.

But by all means balance all that against your "I have a hard time believing...." statement of your inability to change an opinion.

Got it.

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Still waiting for a cite of these “large number” of sources.

Glenn R. McMannly said:

Thank you. I appreciate it and value you as a fellow firearms enthusiast and board member.

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Thanks for the kind words.

Venom6 said:

Hey, Mike, thank you for that interesting post. This thread is over 12 years old so you might not get a lot of response, but I would like to know a bit more about your time "in-country." What unit/job description? How many mags/15s or 30s? What uniform? Would have to disagree, though, on the .30 Carbine Blackhawk's recoil; I had one and found it to be negligible, but agree wholeheartedly that the blast is epic. When I realized a 110 grain bullet at 1450 fps was .357 country, I sold it.

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Venom6: I was an EOD tech, with the 6th EOD Detachment, US Army, Hawaii, 'detached' to the 25th Division. Assigned to do a 'render-safe' on an area so they could extend the landing strip. I originally only carried 3 fifteen-round mags (along with my tool bag, water, etc.) since we always had infantry around us; but I ran out of ammo very quickly one afternoon! I discovered I could carry 6 magazines in a canteen cover, so I upped my load with two covers, 12 mags, plus the 1 in the gun and 2 in the buttstock pack. Never ran out of ammo again. ML

Well lets talk about the people that liked the Carbine Jim Cirillo and Audie Murphy. They both knew something about gun fighting and loved the carbine. Cirillo said , the cut down carbines of the stakeout unit gave more 1 shot stops than any other weapon. I have a neat one in 5.7 Johnson.

With the right ammunition, the .30 carbine is a wicked little cartridge. Back in the early 1990s, before the prices on them went through the roof, I bought a surplus Inland M1 carbine. While back east visiting my family, I used Remington factory ammunition loaded with 110 grain soft points to shoot eastern woodchucks. Those 110 grain soft points at 100 yards would open up a woodchuck like a 55 grain soft point out of a factory 22-250! I could put my foot in the entrance hole without touching fur! I was impressed!

Whelenshooter

The M1 carbine prices have have steadily increased over the years. Not too long ago you could buy a real nice one for $350. I bought this Inland from the widow of a very senior Air America pilot. So senior that Mary lived on TSN air base for 2 years. Regular AA line pilots didn't get to bring their wives to the combat zone. She also sold to me his 1911A1 and several other items that belonged to here husband. I tried to buy his AA ID bracelet but she was not ready to let it go.

Mike LaNier said:

Venom6: I was an EOD tech, with the 6th EOD Detachment, US Army, Hawaii, 'detached' to the 25th Division. Assigned to do a 'render-safe' on an area so they could extend the landing strip. I originally only carried 3 fifteen-round mags (along with my tool bag, water, etc.) since we always had infantry around us; but I ran out of ammo very quickly one afternoon! I discovered I could carry 6 magazines in a canteen cover, so I upped my load with two covers, 12 mags, plus the 1 in the gun and 2 in the buttstock pack. Never ran out of ammo again. ML

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Fascinating. Thank you, Mike.

Buick said:

Cant describe the carbine or its gas tappet system as weak or unreliable. It's a system that when modified with just a very clever trigger group redesign would run reliably in full auto and was accepted by our military in that configuration. In my experience of the last 40 years of shooting it's a design which is reliable in the extreme and on par with our best military weapons. The fact that it has been in continuous civilian production for 80 years essentially unchanged is also a strong testament to the design.

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A fellow worker's uncle had brought back a M2 carbine from WWII. He was selling it for 500 dollars. I was too paranoid to buy an auto rifle so I past it up. Chance missed.

I doubt anything, ever, felt so good in the hands. The size and weight distribution, handiness, the ergos, were like Baby Bear's porridge.
Never owned one, but have had two .22 versions, an Erma and a tricked out 10/22. Also owned a couple Ruger PC9s, still have one, for their M1 feel.
Moon

Glenn R. McMannly said:

Still waiting for a cite of these “large number” of sources.

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And you're going to keep right on waiting. It ain't my job to document 40 years of accumulated knowledge for you, when its also clear you really aren't going to change your opinion anyway.

If primary sources and "proof" matters so much to you, how about you show me a primary source that shows the Italians issued more than two magazines with the BM59.

Post as many as you want.

Retired W4 said:

The M1 carbine prices have have steadily increased over the years. Not too long ago you could buy a real nice one for $350. I bought this Inland from the widow of a very senior Air America pilot. So senior that Mary lived on TSN air base for 2 years. Regular AA line pilots didn't get to bring their wives to the combat zone. She also sold to me his 1911A1 and several other items that belonged to here husband. I tried to buy his AA ID bracelet but she was not ready to let it go.View attachment 761127View attachment 761128View attachment 761131

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I use to carry mine to the range in a violin case with a few extra magazines. Should have taken a picture of it. Sold it to a friend, next time I am there will get a picture of it.

BLACKHAWKNJ said:

During WWII the Ordinance Department chambered an S&W N frame in 30 Carbine. Kicked too much, too much muzzle blast.
The M-2 Carbine could be considered the first "assault rifle"-selective fire, intermediate round, etc.

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I have owned a Ruger Blackhawk in 30 carb. and an M1 carbine for years, I love shooting them both

Another guy that likes the M1 Carbine is Ian McCullum, who has a Youtube channel called Forgotten Weapons.
"I really like the m1 carbine. It is hindered a bit by magazine reliability. I am fortunate to have a three different agazines that work so far perfectly now." Dec 2020 on the PCC Course

He made an interesting comparison testing the carbine and the pistol it was intended to replace.
1911 vs M1 Carbine in a Practical Match - YouTube

In the end it did not fully replace the pistol. In part because for some jobs carrying a 3' light rifle is just as cumbersome and clunky as a three and half foot battle rifle.

Sgt. Ola Mize. In his words on youtube. He used a carbine throughout that firefight and two of his men kept reloading magazines for him.
I beleive the confusion in supply he refers to may have been bandoleers in a box like this.

bph9 said:

Sorry to disagree but I and my friends that have owned original G.I. Carbines since the 1960's and also some commercial models have yet to find even one of these weapons that would fire an entire 15 round magazine without at least 1 jam with original G.I. magazines and that was even with surplus G.I.Ammo which they were designed to shoot.

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In 2000 our sheriff's department order 65 surplus USGI M1 carbines from a source that could only sell to law enforcement agencies. These surplus carbines were coming from Israel. I was given the task (okay, I actually volunteered) of preparing these carbines for use in patrol cars for full time and reserve deputy sheriffs.

I spent a couple of months going through these rifles stripping them down, soaking them in mineral spirits and cleaning them up, then replacing warn parts and springs as needed. I was able to acquire a large quantity of ammo from the Remington ammunition plant in Lonoke, Arkansas, and purchased several cases of unissued USGI and Korean made 15 round magazines. After servicing the rifles I had plenty of volunteer deputies who would go with me to test them at the department range. Once they passed the acceptance test they were issued to a deputy who then had to pass a qualification course of fire with them. Afterwards, they were required to qualify semi-annually with them.

These surplus USGI M1 carbines provided excellent service as patrol rifles for 15 years with our department and we eventually retired them in 2016, allowing the deputies to purchase their carbine if they so chose. Most did.

These M1 carbines served us well. They were very reliable and accurate enough. I've fired hundreds of rounds through each carbine without a malfunction. I personally own over a dozen M1 carbines that I shoot and hunt with and I find them reliable and plenty accurate for what they were designed for, a short range carbine.

GUY`S: I am old now, but I have had a Love Affair with the M1 Carbine since I was a kid it started in 1959. And I carried them and used them alot for real in 68 & 69 and 71 & 72 while I was assigned to Viet Nam and other places in South East Asia. And to be really honest I can`t for the life of me ever remember having any problems, real serious problems with any of the M1 Carbines I ever carried. Just keep them clean & carry them wet & go heavy with your tube of LSA. I don`t mean to get long winded on You Guys. But as I said I have just got Old and I Live Alone now. And about I all I have left is a bunch of Personnel Memories & Personnel Stories. Of the most exciting times of my life. I am sorry if I bored You Guys.
ken

I had two carbines for many years, a Saginaw and an Underwood and many magazines. Never a problem; everything functioned perfectly. I didn't realize some found these guns and magazines to have the shortcomings some have mentioned.

Like so many other gun interests, I eventually grew tired of the carbines, sold them and moved on to something else. Jeff Cooper's opinion has been mentioned here, but I've never been a Cooper disciple.

Since I was a kid, I always thought M1 carbines looked neat; far more so than ARs, and clunky stuff like AKs and SKSs, but that's a meaningless personal opinion like we all have about different guns.

Back in the 70's, the first police department I worked for was small. We had 18 sworn officers and that included the Chief. Our department rifles were M1 Carbines. We shot them every once in awhile at the range, but they were never issued to the patrol guys during my time there.

When I transferred to the Sheriff's Office in the early 80's, our department rifle was the Winchester 94 in .30-30... They were usually only taken out of the armory during deer season and for special occasions where we didn't have enough Remington 870's to go around.

Our investigations division were issued M1 Carbines that I assumed were requisitioned out of evidence. As a department armorer, it was my job to clean them up and get them operational for issue to the detectives. I think we had about a dozen of the Carbines that I outfitted with slings and magazines.