Echo40
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No need for a committee, just use a simple system based on the nature of the crime. The more heinous the offense, the smaller the caliber/cartridge.
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10 year stopping power study
- Thread starter LCC
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No need for a committee, just use a simple system based on the nature of the crime. The more heinous the offense, the smaller the caliber/cartridge.
Scharfschuetzer
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Well, that was interesting and unlike many previous studies, somewhat entertaining.
My take-aways from the two-way ranges:
The most important part of a gun fight is not the gun, its ammo or caliber; but your ability to use it.
My take-aways from the two-way ranges:
The most important part of a gun fight is not the gun, its ammo or caliber; but your ability to use it.
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I can only go by my experience on the street w/my issued thirty-eight. Twice it was the old standard pressure 158 grain lead round nose & once the FBI +P lead hollow point. Suffice it to say I still carry a .38 J Frame w/complete confidence, & pray I never have to use it.
WildBill29
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In White Tail Deer hunting, staying focused under self induced pressure and shot placement are much more effective than the latest greatest bow, rifle or shotgun. This goes for whatever broad head, rifle cartridge or buckshot you choose as well. A miss is a miss. Taking a bad shot results in a wooded animal that can run off and possibly never be recovered or lives with a lasting injury. In a situation where someone is forced into using a firearm to defend themselves there is no substitute for their ability to make an accurate shot under extreme pressure with what ever weapon or load they use. Always make practice count.
Placement trumps caliber.
When I was running sportsfishing boats in the 70's, one of my customers was a bear hunter from the Trinity Alps named Smitty, who used dogs to track and surround a bear, then he would dispatch them ith a .22 pistol. When I asked him how in the heck that worked, he stuck a finger right into the middle of his throat and said "when surrounded by dogs a bear will eventually stand up, which is when I shoot them right here, it shatters the top of their spine and drops them without any damage."
Smitty eventually appeared in the newspapers, busted by game agents for killing bears out of season and selling their pelt and organs to Chinese buyers, and sent to prison.
Which is when I realized why he didn't want any damage done to the bear.
Smitty eventually appeared in the newspapers, busted by game agents for killing bears out of season and selling their pelt and organs to Chinese buyers, and sent to prison.
Which is when I realized why he didn't want any damage done to the bear.
sigp220.45
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John Patrick
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We all knew the 25ACP is more effective than the 9mm Parabellum, right?
John Patrick
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9mm? 357? Heck no! 32 for the win all day!
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Several years ago I proposed a method that achieves what you suggest. . . . I was laughed and ridiculed out of town. Here is a lick-and-a-sniff ("leck und a schmeck") of my idea.
Mature, huntable whitetailed deer are 15—20 percent lighter on average than the average man. They should be easier to kill, right? Kill, in "whitetail-speak" is nearly the same as "stop".
"Why?" you might reasonably ask.
Most "stops" of human beings are attributed as psychological stops — that is, the person shot realizes he has been shot. The pain and realization cause him to cease what he is doing (runnning, shooting — whatever).
Stopping a whitetail is different. Whitetail are almost certainly more robust than than most humans because of their environment, probably compensating for the weight difference. More importantly, a whitetail does not know it has been shot. No psychological stop. Rather, the thing we want to validate is what occurs.
My concept of a test of incapacitation ability that should have high validity pertains to a long-term study of handgun hunters taking whitetail deer. There are a much larger number of handgun hunters taking whitetail than people being shot with handguns. No, I don't include war. Over a five-year period nationwide, the statistics will be absolutely valid for a caliber's ability to incapacitate deer with one shot. Ability of these data to validate ability for human incapacitation having been shot with same caliber in nearly identical location, I believe, will be high. How high will be a sure source of laughter, ridicule, and reasoned debate.
One thought consistent with my process concept that that fits right in with "There is no substitute for cubic inches," is to ask how comfortable you would be hunting whitetail deer with a 38 special or 9x19 mm versus a 357 Magnum, each with suitable ammunition? How about a 32 ACP or 380?
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kamloops67
Member
After watching “active self protection” for a year or more I’ve realized one should probably use a rifle or shotgun loaded with buck
A handgun is marginal at best , but beats hitting the guy with your shoe
A handgun is marginal at best , but beats hitting the guy with your shoe
Absolutely!
How many times have we all heard "shot placement" is the most important component of marksmanship pertaining to hunting? A zillion? Never doubted it and it's what this is all about.
I served on the jury of a capital murder trial some years ago. The victim was shot with a .380 ACP. He was thirty, 225 pounds, six foot three, and in good shape. One shot; he did not make it to the hospital. The projectile traveled the length of his left lung due to an odd angle - he was shot as he was getting off a couch and leaning forward. As a consequence I certainly respect the .380 ACP.
Get a kick out of one of my hunting buds who always poo poos my "favorite" handgun caliber of .38 Special. He claims "it doesn't hit hard enough." He's a friend but none too knowledgeable about firearms. He carries a 9mm and feels superior - and I let him.
Placement trumps caliber.
How many times have we all heard "shot placement" is the most important component of marksmanship pertaining to hunting? A zillion? Never doubted it and it's what this is all about.
I served on the jury of a capital murder trial some years ago. The victim was shot with a .380 ACP. He was thirty, 225 pounds, six foot three, and in good shape. One shot; he did not make it to the hospital. The projectile traveled the length of his left lung due to an odd angle - he was shot as he was getting off a couch and leaning forward. As a consequence I certainly respect the .380 ACP.
Get a kick out of one of my hunting buds who always poo poos my "favorite" handgun caliber of .38 Special. He claims "it doesn't hit hard enough." He's a friend but none too knowledgeable about firearms. He carries a 9mm and feels superior - and I let him.
This is going about as well as expected.
The “size matters” folks launch into speeches about how an insufficient caliber might fail to penetrate and get you killed.
And they are not wrong.
They just fail to realize they are only considering a small right hand tail of all defensive handgun uses, and in fact limit it further to actual defensive handgun shoots, where an assailant was both shot (at best 10% of all defensive hand gun uses) and didn’t end the assault as a result of a psychological stop (about 50% of all actual shoots). So they are focusing on about 1 in every 20 defensive handgun uses and are ignoring the rest.
There is also data that isn’t well explained without looking at the larger context. For example the .32 ACP probably isn’t more effective at getting one shot stops than a 9mm when all things are equal, but they often are not.
There are several confounding variables:
- the .32 ACP shooter might be a better shot. If an experienced shooter is carrying a .32 ACP he or she knows they’ll have to be very precise in bullet placement;
- police probably are not choosing the .32 ACP when raiding the local crack house and encountering motivated or drug stimulated assailants who won’t go down with one shot even with a .50 S&W.
- The greater prevalence of some calibers in law enforcement, and consequently a) greater numbers of shoots captured in the data, b) more shots fired, a c) resulting greater chance for multiple hits, and d) the higher probability of encountering a harder to put down target all have an adverse effect in the form or more multiple shot and failure to stop incidents that water down the effectiveness of common law enforcement cartridges.
- Conversely an assailant expecting a soft target but instead getting a little old lady who pulls a .32 ACP Tomcat out of her purse and puts a round in him is probably far more likely to rethink his intentions and stop or run, than a hard core gang banger in a crack house. That tends to produce a sample bias that favors the .32 ACP and makes it look a lot more effective than it is in terms of *stopping power*
But…you also can’t discount those environmental factors. That little old lady was able to carry and conceal that Tomcat easily all day, every day, while she probably would be less able and less likely to carry and conceal a CZ75 SP01, a 3” 686+, or a Model 29 in .44 Magnum. That does actually make the .32 ACP more effective in the real world because it’s there when the need arises and not in the gun safe at home. That’s a real world factor that has to be considered.
The fact that it’s not the best for that 1 in 20 occurrence doesn’t make it any less “good enough” in the other 19 out of 20 occurrences.
Big data is hard. You have to stay flexible and look at what is really going on. Limiting your cherry picked numbers to just one facet disconnected from the larger context and qualifiers can and will lead you to misleading conclusions.
The “size matters” folks launch into speeches about how an insufficient caliber might fail to penetrate and get you killed.
And they are not wrong.
They just fail to realize they are only considering a small right hand tail of all defensive handgun uses, and in fact limit it further to actual defensive handgun shoots, where an assailant was both shot (at best 10% of all defensive hand gun uses) and didn’t end the assault as a result of a psychological stop (about 50% of all actual shoots). So they are focusing on about 1 in every 20 defensive handgun uses and are ignoring the rest.
There is also data that isn’t well explained without looking at the larger context. For example the .32 ACP probably isn’t more effective at getting one shot stops than a 9mm when all things are equal, but they often are not.
There are several confounding variables:
- the .32 ACP shooter might be a better shot. If an experienced shooter is carrying a .32 ACP he or she knows they’ll have to be very precise in bullet placement;
- police probably are not choosing the .32 ACP when raiding the local crack house and encountering motivated or drug stimulated assailants who won’t go down with one shot even with a .50 S&W.
- The greater prevalence of some calibers in law enforcement, and consequently a) greater numbers of shoots captured in the data, b) more shots fired, a c) resulting greater chance for multiple hits, and d) the higher probability of encountering a harder to put down target all have an adverse effect in the form or more multiple shot and failure to stop incidents that water down the effectiveness of common law enforcement cartridges.
- Conversely an assailant expecting a soft target but instead getting a little old lady who pulls a .32 ACP Tomcat out of her purse and puts a round in him is probably far more likely to rethink his intentions and stop or run, than a hard core gang banger in a crack house. That tends to produce a sample bias that favors the .32 ACP and makes it look a lot more effective than it is in terms of *stopping power*
But…you also can’t discount those environmental factors. That little old lady was able to carry and conceal that Tomcat easily all day, every day, while she probably would be less able and less likely to carry and conceal a CZ75 SP01, a 3” 686+, or a Model 29 in .44 Magnum. That does actually make the .32 ACP more effective in the real world because it’s there when the need arises and not in the gun safe at home. That’s a real world factor that has to be considered.
The fact that it’s not the best for that 1 in 20 occurrence doesn’t make it any less “good enough” in the other 19 out of 20 occurrences.
Big data is hard. You have to stay flexible and look at what is really going on. Limiting your cherry picked numbers to just one facet disconnected from the larger context and qualifiers can and will lead you to misleading conclusions.
Autonomous
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It is hard for some people to drop their intuitive feelings and discard incorrect old lore. Yes you, Mr. .45 Cal.
Terminal ballistics studies are showing that velocity over 2,200 fps causes serious damage even with small projectiles. With less velocity shot placement and adequate penetration quickly become paramount.
Pistol calibers are surprisingly similar in lethality.
This understanding of terminal ballistics is a big part of the trend away from heavy revolvers to 10mm pistols in big bear country.
The wild card is the motivation, mental state, adrenalin, drug use, etc. of the target.
Terminal ballistics studies are showing that velocity over 2,200 fps causes serious damage even with small projectiles. With less velocity shot placement and adequate penetration quickly become paramount.
Pistol calibers are surprisingly similar in lethality.
This understanding of terminal ballistics is a big part of the trend away from heavy revolvers to 10mm pistols in big bear country.
The wild card is the motivation, mental state, adrenalin, drug use, etc. of the target.
Nowadays, I'd find it hard to justify purchasing a .22/.25/.32 for a carry gun when there are .380's available in the same size, and 9mm's not much bigger.
Now if all you have is a .22/.25/.32, and you can't afford anything else, that's a different matter...
My personal take away was .380 should be the minimal caliber for EDC. I carry a LCP Anniversary model in a Alabama holster with a 7 round mag more than any other handgun, preferring the longer pull of that model trigger. Loaded with Underwood XTP's, and with a spare 7 round mag in off pocket, I do not feel inadequately armed for general tooling about in my small community.
With the advancement in .380 ammo, and the increasing trend to smaller/higher capacity handguns, there will be more such models appearing regularly. As more and more folks come to EDC, most are unprepared for dealing with the weight of the larger caliber handguns, and few LGS take the time or have the holster/belt inventory to explain how to match the handgun to the carry method.
With the advancement in .380 ammo, and the increasing trend to smaller/higher capacity handguns, there will be more such models appearing regularly. As more and more folks come to EDC, most are unprepared for dealing with the weight of the larger caliber handguns, and few LGS take the time or have the holster/belt inventory to explain how to match the handgun to the carry method.
I am in the camp with Naphtali. I have hunted whitetail deer for quite a few years, and have seen deer with killing shots take off running, some never found. My preference these days is a neck shot, which puts them down "right there." The eating is better then too. 
If you are facing a person high on some kind of drug and intent on doing you harm, aim small, miss small. If someone is trying to rob you, just letting them know you are ready to end their life will likely suffice.
If you are facing a person high on some kind of drug and intent on doing you harm, aim small, miss small.
If someone is trying to rob you, just letting them know you are ready to end their life will likely suffice.walkin' trails
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We all want to know this type of information, and Greg Ellifritz did an outstanding job with the data he was able to collect. I read this study when it was first published and recall some of his observations included that the data didn't distinguish between bullet configurations, i.e. hollow point, FMJ, and that in its own right might have skewered the results to an unknown degree. Such as he suspected that the 9mm's stopping statistics might have been higher if the data had allowed to see the results of shootings with modern defensive ammo. I regularly follow Elligritz' blogging; his Weekend Knowledge Dumps and a cup of coffee are what get me going every Friday morning.
