1902 Target?

Chukar60

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Need some help. I want to start accumulating some early HE's. I know very little if anything about them. Found this one being offered as a 1902 1st change M&P target, 38 spcl.
Sorry for the bad pics, but it is all that I have.
Looking to see if the description is accurate and an approximate value. Condition is listed as good.
Thank you in advance for all of your help and expertise.
 

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That is a 4-screw Model of 1905, because it has a square butt. A model of 1902 has
a round butt. Looks to be 5", so that is a scarce gun - in target.

Please send me the serial number - use my email [email protected] . I have a
file of 4-screw 1905's, and am trying to put boundaries on both their serial number and
their shipping dates. The expected serial number range is 58000 to 62450. I think there
are some that are later than 62450.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
Your revolver APPEARS to have grips which, if original, would date it to some time in the 1920s. Providing a SN is essential to say more about what you have. It's not a 1902. 1920s-era .38 M&Ps would have SNs in, very roughly, the 330,000-600,000 range.
 
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This is the 1902 Target model (alas, much used up though)
q23gr98
 
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At the risk of sounding like a contrarian, your gun is, indeed, a 1902 target model. At least that's conclusion drawn by the most informative texts as authored by; Roper & McHenry, Neal & Jinks, and finally, Supica & Nahas.

Obviously, there are two schools of thought regarding the cataloging of guns from that period. It doesn't hurt to be aware of both of them.
 
So if the round butt vs sq. butt distinction is not fool proof, how would an HE newbie tell? Not trying to stir debate, I would like to know so when I go look at the gun I have an idea what to look for.
 
In .38 Special:
Ser# 1-20975--------1899-1092---------Model 1899
20976-33803--------1902-1903---------Model 1902
33804-62449--------190301904---------Model 1902 (1st Change)
62450-73250--------1905-1906----------Model 1905
73251-146899-------1906-1909---------Model 1905 (1st & 2nd Charge)

Continued by dates, serial numbers, & engineering changes.

From "Complete Catalog of Smith & Wesson" by Nahas & Supica
 
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There was actually a square-butt version of the Model of 1902 made in 1904. Mike Priwer is the resident expert on those. I do not know the exact SN range, somewhere from the upper 30000s to mid 60000s I think.
 
So if the round butt vs sq. butt distinction is not fool proof, how would an HE newbie tell? Not trying to stir debate, I would like to know so when I go look at the gun I have an idea what to look for.


Chuk, what to look for is important.
There are 3 things.
1. Condition
2. Condition
3. Condition

Then there is scarcity.
Shootability.
Mechanical soundness.
Rings in the bore, don't forget to check the bore carefully.

If the gun you are looking at is in sound mechanical condition.
With NO pitting in the metal.
Around 100 years old.
and is truly a 5in. target version ,
buy the gun and bring it home.

Anywhere between $300. and $600. < Just a guess on my part.

Allen Frame
 
Mike, Without the serial number, I'd have to rely on the old style lockwork. The rebound lever stud is present in both drawings. The straight 1905 had this type system, BUT, it had a different cylinder stop and trigger.
The date of the poster suggests that the round butt depicted was indeed a 1902. Subsequent posters suggest that the Model 1902 was available for, at least, another decade. There's no way of knowing how many thousands of 1902 models went unsold, collecting dust in the company vault. That does not mean, at least to me, that every round butt revolver was a model 1902, or every square butt revolver was a Model 1905.

To ignore the only sources of information (i.e The text books referred to above) is to ignore all of the remarkable research of their authors. To do so based on artist depictions on sales brochures does not have a common sense appeal. Re-writing history is okay. People do it all the time. I just believe that the sales brochures are not the Rozetta Stone that some of us think they are.

The serial numbers, the dates of production, and the engineering changes are the best source of identification of these old guns. That's my two cents, anyway. I didn't mean to get long winded on you, but you asked if anyone could tell you why they think….
 
Mike McLellan

You, and I and the factory catalogs , are just not on the same page. All the scholarly
research and books you are referring to were written decades after these guns were
produced. Even Walter Ropers categorization of engineering changes did not happen
until the early 1920's . More importantly, these guns were always sold from the catalogs -
never from any notions about engineering changes. It was not possible to order a
gun by its engineering change - it was only possible to order by its catalog model
identification. If one wanted a .38 M&P, one had to order a Model of 1902 or a Model
of 1905. Nothing else was possible.

Engineering changes were only for the parts department. They had nothing to do with
the model name of the gun.

The name of the models did change over time. But - there was always a designated
round-butt model, and a designated square-butt model. Always and always. Finally,
the square butt model went away, and all that was left, to this day, is the round
butt model, many decades earlier known as the Model of 1902.

You are clinging to a notion that was never reality. The ideas of engineering changes
are useful to the parts department, and to collector who wish to make that distinction.
That, however, has nothing to do with the model name.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
Mike, The OP's original post was about the value of what the seller described as a 1902 target. Your first post leaves the impression that the seller is either being deceptive, dishonest, or ignorant in his description. What was the OP supposed to think? If he went to the seller and told him that the experts on the S&W Forum described the gun as a "4 screw model of 1905", then what? At best, your post had to cause confusion. At worst, it could fuel the flames of distrust between buyer and seller. My initial post was meant to inform Chukar60 that; 1. The seller was not trying to cheat him, and 2. There is another "school of thought" regarding these guns.

It's okay that we're not "on the same page", but I'm afraid I'll go on clinging to the status quo. The traditional method of categorization suits me perfectly. 4 screw model of 1905? What page is that on?

As I've said before; I mean no disrespect to you or anyone who shares your opinion. You've contributed volumes of information that have benefited me and every other collector on this forum. On this one point though, lets just agree to disagree.
 
Ralph

What is the date of your letter ? Over the years, these guns have lettered in a
variety of ways.

There is clearly a conceptual problem here. A square butt is a model, not an engineering
change, as you and I both know. It was introduced right in the middle of the two
engineering changes to the model of 1902. Both models continued to be offered, as
separate catalog entries, for decades. Other than the butt configuration, they are
identical guns. To say it another way, other than their model name, and corresponding
frame difference, they are identical.

So - how to classify two different models that are otherwise identical guns - that is the
problem.

It is slowly, but only partially, getting resolved, with the recognition of the 4-screw 1905.

Regards, Mike
 
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