1957 metalurgy change question

[stu1ritter]

I was reading another forum about shooting warm to hot hand loads in HE's, especially the 1903. The statement was made that 1957 was a dividing point and you could load post 1957 warmer than pre 1957. Does anyone have any idea of what this might be. I've gone through the SCSW trying to find mention of this and can't. I guess the real question is, did the start of model number stampings change the metallurgy of the guns at all?
thanks,
Stu

 

[Alk8944]

This is basically a myth. It apparently started as a result of calls to S&W Customer Service concerning use of +P ammunition in, specifically, .38 caliber revolvers. For some reason it became common practice for S&W to give the answer that +P was acceptable in any model-marked S&W revolver. Why this point was chosen is unknown, probably extreme caution. Because of the recommendation based on this date there have been those who have assumed there was some basis in fact, and it must have been because of some change making revolvers stronger at that time frame. 'taint so.

The truth is that when the 2" Military and Police revolver was originally introduced by S&W ca. 1936-7 it was advertised at that time as being acceptable for use of the .38-44 High Velocity cartridge originally introduced for the N-Frame Heavy Duty model. This cartridge has been reported as having developed ca. 25,000 PSI and higher, 25% more than modern .38 +P factory ammunition. At that time there had been no change in metallurgy for the M&P since 1920, when S&W began heat-treatment of cylinders for greater strength and resistance to battering of the bolt stop notches, mostly the latter. Up to that time cylinders were left in the annealed state and had proved fully adequate for standard pressure loads.

Over the years since hand loading with smokeless powders has been the norm there have been many "Recommended" loads published in various manuals and other sources which have developed pressures far in excess of modern .38 +P loadings. Millions, if not hundreds of millions, of these high pressure loads have been fired in S&W K-Frame revolvers, even those made prior to heat-treatment of the cylinders, with little obvious detrimental effect. Sometimes cylinders have been bulged, but rarely. Some guns have been blown up, but usually by inattentive reloaders who have thrown double or even triple charges into cases while loading. Catastrophic failures of revolvers are extremely rare with what have been considered "normal" loads, even those greatly exceeding currently published loading data by various bullet and powder manufacturers.

 

[k22fan]

The 1957 date comes from S&W's approval of firing .38 special +P in steel K frames only if they are new enough to be stamped with model numbers. I doubt there's a big strength difference between a 1956 steel K frame and one made in 1958. When the SAAMI established a pressure limit for +P .38 special S&W needed simple advise customers can understand so 1957 became a magic date for steel K frame .38s. It's a stretch to use the 1957 date for anything else.

 

[DWalt]

I agree - a lot of such information is basically an urban myth, or at least has no documented verification. For the typical K-frame in .38 Special, it is highly likely that the revolver's metallurgy has not changed significantly since heat treating began after WWI. One thing you will not find anywhere (or at least I have not been able to find) is a reliably knowledgeable technical discussion of the metallurgy of revolver steels. Indeed, the ammunition manufacturers indicated that the .38/44 ammunition could be used in any revolvers chambered in .38 Special, and a lot of gun ads at that time (1930s-50s) listed the .38 Special high speed (.38/44) ammunition as usable in any S&W and Colt .38 Special revolvers of that time.

 

[gaucho1]

To bad SP has left the house.

 

[lebomm]

He'd be able to tell me whether it was safe to fire +P's in my pencil-barreled CTG model.

 

[truckmizer]

He'd be able to tell me whether it was safe to fire +P's in my pencil-barreled CTG model.

Why would you want to shoot +Ps, do you use that as a carry gun or home protection?

 

[Hondo44]

This is basically a myth. It apparently started as a result of calls to S&W Customer Service concerning use of +P ammunition in, specifically, .38 caliber revolvers. For some reason it became common practice for S&W to give the answer that +P was acceptable in any model-marked S&W revolver. Why this point was chosen is unknown, probably extreme caution.

I agree and the simple answer is, that's what the lawyers told them to say for two reasons:

1. A model stamped revolver is easily identified and an unmistakable cutoff point for anyone, no matter how unfamiliar they might be with S&W revolvers. What answer could be simpler or more straightforward?

2. Model stamped revolvers are fairly new and it eliminated all the previous revolvers with the potential of high wear and questionable mechanical condition.

 

[Hondo44]

He'd be able to tell me whether it was safe to fire +P's in my pencil-barreled CTG model.

W/o a smiley face on your post, I'd hate to mislead someone not in on the the 'CTG' jest (as in the barrel roll mark ".38 S&W Special CTG" for Cartridge) or 'pencil barrel' term for what is really just a standard barrel.

 

[PMRet]

He'd be able to tell me whether it was safe to fire +P's in my pencil-barreled CTG model.

Yes he would...

 

[stu1ritter]

Folks, thank you very much for "busting" another urban myth. It just didn't make sense to me and now I see it doesn't make sense.
again, thanks,
Stu

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

There used to be a rumor floating around that there was a metallurgy change in the M&P revolvers at serial number 316648. I don't know whether it is true, but I take it very seriously.

 

[linde]

. . . there had been no change in metallurgy for the M&P since 1920, when S&W began heat-treatment of cylinders for greater strength and resistance to battering of the bolt stop notches, mostly the latter. Up to that time cylinders were left in the annealed state and had probed (sic proven) fully adequate for standard pressure loads.

There used to be a rumor floating around that there was a metallurgy change in the M&P revolvers at serial number 316648. I don't know whether it is true, but I take it very seriously.

I believe the change you reference at M&P s/n 316648 is the heat treating change that Alk8944 referred to circa 1920. That change is well documented.

Russ

 

[Doug M.]

Truckmizer and Hondo44: the answers about SP andhis opinions, along with the maner in which the revolvers were described, are sarcasm, I'm sure of it.

 

[Hondo44]

Truckmizer and Hondo44: the answers about SP andhis opinions, along with the maner in which the revolvers were described, are sarcasm, I'm sure of it.

Doug,

Yes, we both know that, but you can see the potential problem caused by sarcasm for our newer members. I have also been guilty of this and try not to any longer.

Thx,

 

[Hondo44]

There used to be a rumor floating around that there was a metallurgy change in the M&P revolvers at serial number 316648. I don't know whether it is true, but I take it very seriously.

I believe the change you reference at M&P s/n 316648 is the heat treating change that Alk8944 referred to circa 1920. That change is well documented.

Russ

True! It's not a rumor, that serial # is stated in the SCSW 3rd, pg. 139 and is the exact event Alk8944 referred to circa 1920. In fact most models have their approximate or exact serial # for the introduction of cyl heat treating listed in the SCSW description of each model produced in that era.

 

[Malysh]

Truckmizer and Hondo44: the answers about SP andhis opinions, along with the maner in which the revolvers were described, are sarcasm, I'm sure of it.

So what happened with him?
He was rude to me more than once so I stopped reading his posts.

 

[k22fan]

So what happened with him?
He was rude to me more than once so I stopped reading his posts.

He's a writing professor. I hope he's enjoying his summer off.

Lots of people are unaware of how their cranky disposition is affecting their current conversation. Despite his imperfections I enjoyed reading a lot of SP's posts. I've been insulted worse by crankier members.

 

[Malysh]

He's a writing professor. I hope he's enjoying his summer off.

Lots of people are unaware of how their cranky disposition is affecting their current conversation. Despite his imperfections I enjoyed reading a lot of SP's posts. I've been insulted worse by crankier members.

Each to his own. I don't treat people like that and I won't tolerate people treating me that way.

Thanks for your reply. I was curious. This individual is one reason I spent less time here the last few years.

 

[crofoot629]

I can add that there can big a large difference in the Rockwell hardness between post war Heavy Duty cylinders. I used to assume all lost wars bored to accept .357 would be ok. When they actually very a great deal in strength.

Emory