357 Defensive Suggestions

[FiveG]

I'm wondering if folks here might have suggestions about the state of the art on .357 Mag defensive ammo. I carry a K-frame (3" Model 65), and while I know the conventional wisdom has been that 125 gr. is the way to go, it isn't a joy to the shooter to practice with. I am sensing, however, that there's been updates/improvements in technology re bullet design and recoil for lighter, shorter barrel .357 applications, and so I'm hoping to get some suggestions of rounds to try. (I am aware of the view that too much .357 in a K-frame can be an issue for the gun itself; I can deal with that various ways.)

And yes, I know the answer often is to use 38 spl. or 38 spl.+P. While insight on those would be useful, I'd also appreciate answers on the .357 Mag.

Thanks.

 

[ProCarryNAustin]

Check Lucky Gunner's Lab section. They have a wide selection of gel test examples.

 

[ContinentalOp]

You may want to do a search if you haven't already as this topic has been discussed before.

For .357 Magnum, the Speer SB-GDHP is a good mid-range option. A little stronger than the .38 Special version, but won't beat up you or your gun. There are other mid-range options, but the SB-GDHP is what I've carried in a 3" 65 and had no problems shooting it.

FWIW, when I had a 3" 65, I normally carried it with Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure in .38 Special. It's their version of the FBI load, though I did use the SB-GDHP load in both .357 Magnum and .38 Special at times. Remington's .38 Special FBI load would be another option if you'd rather not use BB ammo or find it too expensive.

 

[biku324]

^^^^This makes sense. If a load is unpleasant for practice with, you won't. The practice is more important than the ballistics.

 

[OKFC05]

Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel .357 is my choice for my model 65 when I want more than the .38 version of the same load. The short barrel loading avoids some of the blast and recoil of loads made for long barrels, and produces more than enough performance for me.

 

[FiveG]

Thanks, all. I've been using the Winchester White Box 110 grain for years, but keep reading that it's bad for the forcing cone or otherwise, so maybe this old dog can learn new tricks when there's new tricks available.

 

[JJEH]

Can't go wrong with Buffalo Bore!

Buffalo Bore Ammunition | Strictly Big Bore - Strictly Business

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Real world experience:

Another cop and I chased an armed robbery suspect for several blocks, through alleys and back yards with him popping caps at us several times. Bozo popped out of an alley about 15 yards away, other officer nailed him with a S&W Model 19 4" .357 loaded with Remington .357 125-grain JHP. Through the shoulder joint (breaking bone), exited on a downward path, struck a concrete curb, passed through a 2X4 porch railing, through the exterior wall of a frame house, through an interior wall, then lodged in a 3rd wall within a few feet of a baby sleeping in a crib.

After that I never carried magnum ammunition on or off duty in an urban setting, always stuck with .38 Special +P (Federal 158-LSWC-HP "FBI load").

Over the past half-century I have shot a lot of .357 magnum ammo, and continue to do so. I have taken several Colorado mule deer (175-275 lbs. live weight) with .357 magnum 158 LSWC and LSWC-HP, all but one completely penetrated the body cavities from side to side (one was found just under the skin on the off-side).

It is my considered opinion that .357 magnum ammunition is seriously overpowered for defensive uses, particularly in revolvers with barrels under 4" length in which there is very little added velocity or energy achieved in spite of excessive recoil, muzzle blast, and muzzle flash that are detrimental to effective shooting. Good .38 Special ammunition is more than sufficient with proper shot placement, and proper shot placement is much more likely without the excesses of magnum ammo.

Now we can sit back and see all the "experts" quote statistics and jello tests.

 

[Marine Corps Air]

+1 for OKFC05!

Many years ago my FFL and gunsmith started me out on Hornady Critical Defense .357 Magnum FTX 125 grain FTX.

Over the years I have changed my philosophy and preferences for personal carry and home defense from 4" or 6" .44 Magnums (Model 29s) to J or K/L frames, especially "snubbies". Until I can locate a 3" Model 586 or 686 I'm using a 2.5" Model 66. Insofar as the load, the Hornady option has always been a concern, especially after reading through many posts on the two choices in this section of the forum.

Based on other members opinions and recommendations, including my own research, I recently changed my choice to the Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel .357 Magnum option.

I believe that this is a much better solution for my own potential future requirements. Note - as of today, I have not actually been in a situation in which I actually have had to use either option for PD ammo.

Bill

 

[FiveG]

Looking at the Buffalo Bore options, they seem to have a variety of "lower recoil/low flash" variants -- 125, 140, and 158 gr. Any thoughts on which of those would fit the bill better? And, I'm definately going to try out the Speer 135 gr as well (as well as some 38 Spl per post above.)

 

[biku324]

Real world experience:

After that I never carried magnum ammunition on or off duty in an urban setting, always stuck with .38 Special +P (Federal 158-LSWC-HP "FBI load").

Now we can sit back and see all the "experts" quote statistics and jello tests.

I started carrying a M49 backup to my issue 357 in '83 or so and immediately replaced the 125 grain 357 JHPs in my looploader (we had to use these until we went to semi-autos) with the +P 158 grain LHP. I had magnums in the cylinder as required, but my reserve ammo fit both sidearms.

 

[rockquarry]

Real world experience:

It is my considered opinion that .357 magnum ammunition is seriously overpowered for defensive uses, particularly in revolvers with barrels under 4" length in which there is very little added velocity or energy achieved in spite of excessive recoil, muzzle blast, and muzzle flash that are detrimental to effective shooting. Good .38 Special ammunition is more than sufficient with proper shot placement, and proper shot placement is much more likely without the excesses of magnum ammo.

Now we can sit back and see all the "experts" quote statistics and jello tests.

Best advice so far, but if you have to use a .357 magnum ammo, try several brands and varying weights and bullet styles. A one time expense, but well worth trouble to find out what works best for you, i.e., what you shoot best, what's most accurate, what load strikes point of aim, and which ammo you can quickly recover from recoil for subsequent shots.

Studies, YouTube, jello testing, etc. may not be completely worthless but are very secondary at best. Developing good technique and improving shooting skills are far more important and useful, particularly when using .357 magnum ammo. Don't limit your practice to short distances - you won't benefit much. At 10 or 15 yards, everyone is an expert shooter and even sorry ammo is accurate. Good luck-

 

[FiveG]

Thanks. I've actually spent a lot of time (and training) using my K65; but agree that the right course when looking at an ammo change is to sample the waters, and then decide which works best (with the reminder that everything is a compromise).

Appreciate everyone's thoughts and help.

 

[WR Moore]

After watching 125 gr Federal .357 Magnum batter our issue 681's-and us, for all training/practice/duty use I figured something a tad milder was in order.

I did some testing with same/similar bullets at around 1250 f/s and found much less fuss and bother and pretty much the same results in simulated tissue.

The Gold Dot for full power loads is a dish shaped cavity rather than an actual hollow point. Does very well at around the same velocities, but with much better weight retention than conventional JHPs. I'd expect the Short Barrel load to be a good choice.

 

[Borderboss]

Honestly, real-world experience from 30 years ago or more doesn't really mean much due to the significant development in bullet design since then. Most of the JHPs up to and including a lot of the 1980s may as well have been FMJs. The lead was thick and so was the jacket material.

But I guess the FBI doesn't know what they're doing because the judge ammo by gel tests.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Thanks, all. I've been using the Winchester White Box 110 grain for years, but keep reading that it's bad for the forcing cone or otherwise, so maybe this old dog can learn new tricks when there's new tricks available.

Actually, it's not. The forcing cone issue with lightweight bullets only applies to full-power loads, i.e. 125gr JHP @ 1450fps.

The WWB 110gr SJHP is more of a mid-range (maybe even light) load, @ 1295fps (according to the Winchester website). This puts it in the neighborhood of 9mm 115gr +P/+P+ loads, balistically-speaking.

It was my favorite load to shoot in my 3" 65. Easy to shoot, accurate enough for my needs. The only downside was that it produced a significant muzzle flash. Fun to see at the range, but possibly too much for self defense.

While it wouldn't be my first choice in a defensive load, I wouldn't feel undergunned if that's what I had available.

Also, I could be wrong, but I recall reading somewhere that the US Marshals Service used this load, or something similar, back when they issued the 3" GP100. I'm definitely not 100% certain about that.

 

[mrchuck]

I carry a S&W Model 60-9, 2 1/2" barrel.
5 rounds of 357 magnum.
Also carry 5 xtra cartridges in a small plastic holder, in my pocket.
The flame out of the barrel is huge.
The noise is LOUD and very noticeable!
This was my "sidearm" in the Mountains when on patrol.
I always relied on my rifle, that I carried everywhere.

 

[FiveG]

It was my favorite load to shoot in my 3" 65. Easy to shoot, accurate enough for my needs. The only downside was that it produced a significant muzzle flash. Fun to see at the range, but possibly too much for self defense.

I bought a bunch of it "back in the day" when it was cheap, and still use it. I did some training up at S&W Academy when they used to do civilian courses (sigh!), and one day, used the 110 gr. in a 640 in their completely dark long tunnel. Man, talk about watching a dragon breath fire! It was a hoot.

 

[Rodan]

I've been carrying the Buffalo Bore 140gr solid copper "short-barrel, low-recoil/low-flash".

At 1150-1200fps out of 2.5-3" barrels it's authoritative, but not punishing to shoot.

One detail I like about the copper bullets is they don't deform like some of the exposed lead HPs (Remington/Federal 125s) when carried in speed loaders or strips in pockets.

My all-time favorite .357 carry load was the 180gr Black Talon at ~1100fps. It was surprisingly mild to shoot and hit like a ton of bricks. Of course it's long discontinued, and there's no replacement in the Ranger LE line.

 

[Rodan]

I bought a bunch of it "back in the day" when it was cheap, and still use it. I did some training up at S&W Academy when they used to do civilian courses (sigh!), and one day, used the 110 gr. in a 640 in their completely dark long tunnel. Man, talk about watching a dragon breath fire! It was a hoot.

At one time, Winchester had a 'low flash' version of that load... don't know if it's still available.