.357 loads that are easy on a 19-3 and 66-1

[ArchAngelCD]

If you're looking for fun light loads for your .357 Magnum revolvers why not load full power .38 Special +P loads in .38 Spl brass? If you want to stick with .357 brass just use the starting load data for Magnum loads with Cast bullets. Looking at the Hodgdon load data site most of the starting charge weights with cast bullets are in the .38 Special pressure range using a 125gr or 158gr bullet. That should do it for you...

 

[alwslate]

I agree. 1,000 fps with a 158 gr cast bullet from a 4" revolver can be reached in .38 spl brass with 6.0 grs of Longshot or Power Pistol without exceeding the 20,000 psi limit for .38 spl +P. So why not just use readily available .38 spl brass and the same loads could be used in .357 or modern .38 spl revolvers.

 

[Retired W4]

I see this thread has been moved to the proper section. Thank you.

 

[rockquarry]

I have made many comparison tests with std vs mag primers by chronographing velocities of various loads in the .357 with loads of around 1,000 fps to 1,400 fps. With loads around 1,000 fps velocity is increased by 5-10 fps and ES is always decreased with mag primers. Using heavier loads with 2400 velocity is increased by as much as 100 fps or more with mag primers and ES is greatly reduced. Example, 13.0 grs 2400, std primer, velocity = 1135 fps. !2.0 grs, a full grain less powder, WSPMP, velocity = 1225 fps with a greatly reduced ES. There just isn't any downside to using mag primers with all .357 loads that I can see. Same price, maybe more available and most loading manuals have always used mag primers in deference to the tall for diameter .357 case. People seem to think mag primers are dangerous in some way but original Hercules and Alliant .357 loads used the Federal 200 primer with all powders. It was listed by Federal as a SR and SPM primer both until recently. So to me the question isn't why use mag primers but why not?

Trying different primers is certainly a good idea if you have them available or can easily access them. However, don't become fixated on ES and SD numbers. They are a measure of consistency only, not accuracy. Many other factors affect accuracy. It's possible to develop a load with low numbers that is accurate, but don't count on that happening as so many apparently do.

Group size is a true and reliable measure of accuracy and really the only way to assess it. If you feel you must have ES and SD numbers, that's okay, but look at them AFTER you shoot the smallest groups. I seldom look at these figures, but if you group sizes are not what you expected and you've checked out the many other factors that affect accuracy, then consider the numbers.

 

[M29since14]

Always a great disappointment (mainly in rifle shooting) when a load has small SD numbers and doesn’t shoot worth a hoot, but it happens.

In pistols (magnum revolvers), I’m usually happy with 50 FPS extreme spread for 6 rounds, hopefully less, if the load shot nicely on paper at 25 yards. If I start to see these ridiculous 100-125 FPS extreme spreads, I don’t care how well they may shoot at 25, I’m going to keep looking for something better. These loads don’t even require a chronograph to sort out. If you’re paying attention, you can identify them simply by report and recoil. Like a piano, anyone can buy a chronograph, but learning to use it wisely does take some experience - and even a little wisdom.

I’ve never tried Winchester SPM primers. All my .357 Magnum experience is with CCIs. If primers ever start showing up again, that’s something I’ll have to try. Different primers sometimes do make a notable difference. I recently loaded a test batch of four different primers I had on hand for my .300 Winchester target rifle using an established powder-bullet combination it prefers. Two were standard and two were magnums. To my complete surprise, the best results that day were with the primer I would have been least likely to expect. (In this case, Remington 9-1/2s.) The primers I would normally use were fine, their track record previously well established. Another primer I routinely resort to in this particular load, which I thought should be very similar, was not. Chronograph results were. Accuracy results were not.

In recent years, when testing rifle loads, I have always tried to test simultaneously both for accuracy and uniformity. Until I obtained my Labradar device, this used to be sometimes pretty inconvenient to do, if not impossible. You never know what will happen in your particular guns, especially with accuracy, until you try it.

 

[rockquarry]

I tried all the small US pistol primers (standard and magnum) some years ago with one .357 Magnum load in one revolver and shot a lot of groups at 25 yards. There were differences in group sizes. Interesting project, but using one load in one gun and a bunch of different primers only tells ME something. It's not too useful for anyone else.

 

[max503]

I have understood two things about these guns.
#1 Small bullets. The 125 Federal hollow point became almost mythical for a period of time. It was singled out as the magic "manstopper" in the days of Marshall and Sanow (1992). However, that bullet is too short to seal the tube, the nose is not all the way in before the base clears the gap and allows hot gases to surround the nose in the forcing cone and enter the barrel in front of it. This is where the damaging pressure occurs. The 158 grain bullet is plenty long enough that this is not a problem. Many shooters report many years of no problem with thousands of these rounds.

Thanks. This is the first time I've read that explanation. Makes sense.

 

[Drm50]

I use 2400 & cast bullet in 357 but would see what weight bullet and charge I needed to print sights.

 

[41 mag Dave]

This is what I have been loading and shooting the most lately.

357 Magnum Case
Hensley & Gibbs #50 150gr Wadcutter
4.5 grains of Bullseye
Remington 1 1/2 Primer
Seated to Crimp Groove and Light Crimp

Out of my 3" Python it averages 1000fps (1003 actually) with low ES and SD.
The best part is that it is extremely accurate and takes steel plate down with authority. The recoil is more than a 38 wadcutter target load but still allows for fast recovery.

YMMV

 

[txtad]

Well, lets start with W296/H110: don't experiment with it. It's best for a narrow range of hot loads in .357, and odd results have been reported with reduced loads.
Any of a baker's dozen of medium powders, including HP 38, are suitable for loading .38 +P and "mid-range .357" loads that are good for routine use in K frame .357 revolvers in good condition. One of my favorites is 7.5gr HP38 under 125grHP in a Model 65 for carry. I have shot a truckload of .38 +p 158gr in Model 66s for action pistol competition.

To be clear, that part of my question is if starting loads of H110/W296 are sufficiently low to not be hard on the K frame .357s.

 

[txtad]

I see this thread has been moved to the proper section. Thank you.

Tom S did that. I disagree, as this is not a reloading question, but rather a question about how to treat a specific vintage of a specific model of S&W gently. But, they want all reloading discussions regardless of the purpose over here, so here it is.

 

[txtad]

I do not reload much anymore, but when I did, I used nothing but 2400 powder and cast lead SWC or copper jacketed of the 158 gr. variety in magnum loads. I have experimented with lighter bullets, but pretty much settled on the caliber design weight bullet. I would be mindful of the light bullets in the K frame with the flatted barrel portion as seen at the forcing cone. My reason for using 2400 was that a double charge spills over the case mouth. Just an added safety feature for me.

If I were going to play with light bullet high speed loads, I would use an N frame M28. I agree with the previous statement about not feeding K frames a steady diet of max loads. They do not have the mechanical integrity of an N frame

Light bullets are specifically not part of this discussion. 158gr only, maybe 148-150 if I consider some wadcutter loads.

 

[txtad]

If you're looking for fun light loads for your .357 Magnum revolvers why not load full power .38 Special +P loads in .38 Spl brass? If you want to stick with .357 brass just use the starting load data for Magnum loads with Cast bullets. Looking at the Hodgdon load data site most of the starting charge weights with cast bullets are in the .38 Special pressure range using a 125gr or 158gr bullet. That should do it for you...

I have .38 Special revolvers for .38 Special loads.

I specifically want, if possible, .357 Magnum loads, "-P" or so. More than .38 +P, but low enough to be easy on these K frame guns. If that is possible. Maybe something that Venturino or Taffin might call "working" loads.

Regarding .357 starting loads, that part of my question is if those loads are indeed light enough for this purpose.

 

[BSA1]

Well I don’t have much too add to the discussion.

Jacketed hollow point bullets need velocity to reliably expand. This may run counter to your quest for a lighter magnum round. I join with the others with the 158 gr. SWC. Also known as the FBI cartridge it offers deep penetration and enough energy to break bones. Since you will not need have to worry about bullet expansion you can adjust the velocity to what is most comfortable for you.

As far as powder I use W231. W231 is a powder that performs well with mediun caliber cartridges.

 

[Forrest r]

Cowboy action reloading data is always a good place to start when looking for light/low level loads for the different calibers for revolvers.

Myself, I like to use 5.5gr to 6.0gr of bullseye and any 140gr to 160gr cast bullet for my middle of the road/blammo ammo in my 357 revolvers (4 of them) and a10" bbl'd contender.

several 35cal bullets I make for the 38spl's/357 mag's.

2 of my favorite cast bullets that I use/shoot the most. Top row 2nd from left is a Mihec 640 series 158gr fn hp. Bottom center is a cramer "hunter" 158gr fn hp that was designed in the 1940's as a hunting bullet for the 357mag.

Playing around with a 686 @ 50yds doing 6-shot groups with both bullets and 5.5gr and 6.0gr loads of bullseye powder. The target looks cluttered because I was simply amusing myself bench resting the revolver with a 7x scope on it.

top targets are the hunter bullet
bottom targets are the 640 series
left targets are 5.5gr
right targets are 6.0gr

Really didn't take anything serous, didn't take too much time measuring groups. All measurements were outside to outside (edge to edge) and all groups were +/- 2" 6-shot groups @ 50yds.

Any of the fast burning "target" powders should be able to produce accurate loads that are easy on the shooter & firearms while providing more thump than 38spl/38spl p+ loads.

 

[OKFC05]

To be clear, that part of my question is if starting loads of H110/W296 are sufficiently low to not be hard on the K frame .357s.

No, they are not.

 

[gwpercle]

Lite 357 loads would be something like 38 Special +P Loads .
A little hotter than standard 38 special but not into the Magnum loadings .
The following are my favorite lite 357 Magnum loads .
Loaded into 357 brass , standard primers , 158 gr. cast lead SWC , RF or RN bullet ... lubed or coated as you like it .
You will notice no velocities over 1,000 fps ... all loads are in the 850 to 950 fps range for these "lite" 357 Loads :

4.5 grs. Bllseye @ 904 fps

4.0 grs. 700X @ 907 fps

4.7 grs. HP38 @ 900 fps

4.9 grs . W231 @ 905 fps
5.4 grs. W231 @ 952 fps

5.0 grs. Unique @ 868 fps
5.5 grs. Unique @ 918 fps



5.7 grs. Herco @ 906 fps.

6.5 grs. HS6 @ 905 fps.
7.0 grs. HS6 @ 944 fps .


These loads that generate around 800 to 900 fps are gentle on both shooter and revolver ... if you need more power , simply load to a 950 fps velocity , these are also less punishing .

All loads tested in a 1971 Ruger Blackhawk w/ 6 1/2 inch barrel .

Strangely ... it's favorite ...most accurate ... Loads are with Unique ...
yes the bad mouthed "Flaming Dirt" ...5.3 grs. Unique and any 158 LSWC or WC will print one-hole groups at 25 yards . 6 shots will go into 3/4 inch if I do my part .
I don't know what it is about Unique and Bullseye but I've been looking for more accurate powders since 1971 (the year I bought the RBH) ...
but haven't found one yet ... although Accurat powders may hold promise ( AA no. 2 & AA No.5 look interesting )
Gary

 

[rhodesengr]

Look at the loads listed with AA#5. I do one with 8gr to get about 1000fps. The listed range is 8 to 9 gr but you might even be able to run less.

H110 is for the full power load.

 

[txtad]

(my question asking if starting loads of W296/H110 being easy on these guns)

No, they are not.

I like the confidence of this answer. It is more or less what I think about those as well. They may be less hard, but slow burning ball powders are still hard on guns.

I think another related question is what pressure level of fast or medium powders is hard on these guns. With a friendly powder, are they OK with fairly strong loads, or should one still back all the way to starting loads or less? Obviously, the less intense the loads, the longer the gun will last, all the way to zero, but not shooting these guns is no fun.

I think I'm looking for a sweet-spot, if it exists, that is more than any .38 Spl load, but before the point where wear on the gun is accelerating faster than the performance increase.

I just read a post on another forum discussing the change from 45,000 CUP to 35,000 PSI. The poster was making the point that despite claims to the contrary, this is a performance reduction as 45,000 CUP is about 43,500 PSI. If that is true, and the thought that "full power" loads being hard on these guns is in the context of even higher pressures, maybe 30,000 PSI with friendly powders isn't all that hard on these guns.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I have .38 Special revolvers for .38 Special loads.

I specifically want, if possible, .357 Magnum loads, "-P" or so. More than .38 +P, but low enough to be easy on these K frame guns. If that is possible. Maybe something that Venturino or Taffin might call "working" loads.

Regarding .357 starting loads, that part of my question is if those loads are indeed light enough for this purpose.

It's possible, just use the right powder.

2400 starting loads won't burn 100% of the powder. You need to go to a medium fast powder like Titegroup, Clays, American Select, Unique or Accurate#5. Really fast powder will only use about 1/3 of case capacity but it still works. CAS shooters use those medium fast powder loads in 357 everyday.

I use American select and happy with it. I have several model 19's.