.38/200???

sunday bill

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Local dealer called this p.m. to say he has a 6 inch .38 S&W caliber Smith & Wesson with lots of British markings. Says it's tight, shows no rust or signs of abuse, few signs of being carried, has a nice bore and is wearing its original grips. Serial number is in the 700,000 range the SCSW mentions with regard to the .38/200.

It also mentions $365 in VG. He indicated he might take $325 OTD.

Never paid a lick of attention to these old military 38s before.

Don't need a new addiction in my old days.

The caliber is anemic and uses a funny fat bullet requiring new moulds and brass and dies.

There's been no recent run on these things or any other development that would make this old S&W (I refuse to call a 38 a War Horse) worth the 20 mile round trip.

Hardly any of yall really like'em.

Do ya?
 
It'll shoot any 38 S&W and anemic depends on whether your shootin it or gettin shot with it. Dont look to me for advice, I just bought a Regulation Police 32.
 
I think there are better choices for self defense. There seem to be a lot of Model 10s still around in very good condition at reasonable prices. That said, the Brits obviously thought it was an adequate caliber for a military side arm.

So anyone buying it would be looking more at collectability, historical value, etc than stopping power.

Now watch someone jump all over me saying he used his to drive off a gang of violent felons immediately after he had killed a charging grizzly with one well-placed shot.
 
The vast majority of these British guns are 5" so 6" is a bit uncommon. The 38 S&W isn't a total wimp but it is less powerful and more trouble to feed than the 38 Special.
 
I think it's safe to say there are a hundred better self defense calibers. LOL But for fun shooting, they are all fun whether it's a 22 short or a 454 casull.
 
The .38 S&W has no real reason to exist but I do like the old round and have a few revolvers so chambered. The .38 S&W may be handloaded to quite respectable velocities in good solid framed revolvers like the K-Frame. I have a favored load that manages 750 fps with a 158 grain bullet.
 
I have taken a 125 JHP to a clocked 975 FPS from my 2" Terrier. Still a bit light in my book for SD use, it tops the much feared +P 38 Special by around 100 FPS (+P makes about 875 from my 2" guns).
 
Help me if I'm wrong.

If I remember correctly, S&W made the 38/200's to repay England's partial payment for a rifle that wouldn't work, early in WWII. The Brit's accepted the revolvers in lieu of repayment. The Brit's also said the 38/200 killed as well as the .455 in the First and Second model. I believe my info is from one of Skeeter's books. Like was said earlier, I wouldn't want to get shot with one.
 
"The Brit's also said the 38/200 killed as well as the .455 ..."

I've always heard they claimed that but saying it's so doesn't necessarily make it so.
 
I have ended up with seven pistols that shoot the old 38 S&W round and one of them is a British model. It shoots quite well, but I do much better with my Terrier. I have just started reloading for this round and so far, I like how it performs.

It may be an outdated round, but it is a lot of fun to shoot. Hey, it's still a better defense round then the 25ACP!
 
One standard Police load for the .38 was also called the ".38-200" - it's a standard .38Spl casing with a 200gr bullet. If that's what you've got, it'll shoot standard .38 Spls.... I would avoid +P's, but it's a decent shooter otherwise in either caliber.

(If a .38Spl will chamber, that's what you have....)

However, if the chamber is short, forget that.

This is the Internet, and I could be wrong - the Brits could have applied that name to a 200gr ball on the shorter .38 casing.

Regards,
 
One standard Police load for the .38 was also called the ".38-200" - it's a standard .38Spl casing with a 200gr bullet. If that's what you've got, it'll shoot standard .38 Spls.... I would avoid +P's, but it's a decent shooter otherwise in either caliber.

(If a .38Spl will chamber, that's what you have....)

However, if the chamber is short, forget that.

This is the Internet, and I could be wrong - the Brits could have applied that name to a 200gr ball on the shorter .38 casing.

Regards,

The British did use the 38 S&W and it's been my understanding (could be in error) that the 38 S&W, 38 Colt New Police are the same round as the 38 Super Police but with different loadings. The 38/200 and the 38 super police are the same loading while the new police is a flat nosed bullet.
 
Thanks for the enlightenment. The pool of historical knowledge among the members of this forum never ceases to amaze me.

Won't see the gun til Monday but I'm told it has wording something like "3 TONS" stamped on it someplace.

Does this have to do with Brit proofing? Relate to pressure testing????
 
One standard Police load for the .38 was also called the ".38-200" - it's a standard .38Spl casing with a 200gr bullet. If that's what you've got, it'll shoot standard .38 Spls.... I would avoid +P's, but it's a decent shooter otherwise in either caliber.

(If a .38Spl will chamber, that's what you have....)

However, if the chamber is short, forget that.

This is the Internet, and I could be wrong - the Brits could have applied that name to a 200gr ball on the shorter .38 casing.

Regards,
I think that's what they did; everything I've read said it was a .38 S&W case, not a .38 Special.
 
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3.5 tons sq in is the usual proof. I have a number of revolvers chambered in 0.38 S&W (Webley MKIVs, Enfield No 2 Mk 1, I* and I**, Model 11 S&W and M&Ps that are pre-Victories). Reload in 0.38 S&W cases using a 180 grain semi-wadcutter sized at 0.360. Mimics the 38/200 load at 7 metres. Would not like to be hit by it. Dave_n
PS that is a good price. If you do not buy it do you know if the shop owner will accept a C&R?
 
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Dave n, I don't know if he will accept a C&R. If I don't buy or trade for it tomorrow, I'll ask and let you know.
 
Local dealer called this p.m. to say he has a 6 inch .38 S&W caliber Smith & Wesson with lots of British markings. Says it's tight, shows no rust or signs of abuse, few signs of being carried, has a nice bore and is wearing its original grips. Serial number is in the 700,000 range the SCSW mentions with regard to the .38/200.

It also mentions $365 in VG. He indicated he might take $325 OTD.

Never paid a lick of attention to these old military 38s before.

Don't need a new addiction in my old days.

The caliber is anemic and uses a funny fat bullet requiring new moulds and brass and dies.

There's been no recent run on these things or any other development that would make this old S&W (I refuse to call a 38 a War Horse) worth the 20 mile round trip.

Hardly any of yall really like'em.

Do ya?

The dealer might be mistaken as to barrel length? Maybe it's a 5 inch. It's probably not a .38 special. I believe .38/200 is the name for the British service ctg, otherwise the .38 S&W. I would not fire .38 specials in it, even if they do chamber. A guy was out at the range shooting one a few months ago with Specials and was wondering why all his cases were bulged. The British proofs wre a dead giveaway.

Chris
 
If I hadn't spent all my gun money on .38 S&W guns already, I'd snag this one, too :-) No real reason, I guess, except "the addiction" has many phases, doesn't it?

As far as ammo ID & gun caliber goes, here's some info: Webley designed a new revolver in the early '20s, seeking British Army adoption of a lighter, easier-to-shoot gun for recruits given quick training under wartime conditions. The cylinder was not long enough for the .38 SPL, but was for the .38 S&W, and the Brits considered the latter round decently effective in US police service. They boosted bullet weight to 200g to increase stopping power, on the "slow & heavy" concept.

I know that Colt called the .38 S&W round the ".38 Colt New Police," probably to avoid printing "S&W" on their revolvers :-) I'm not sure if the Brits were the first to load the cartridge with a 200g bullet & it was subsequently adopted by many US police depts., or if the Brits were inspired by the .38 "Super Police" cartridge in US police service. The Brits referred to the round as .380 calibre, .380-200, .380 Revolver, .380 Rimmed, etc. Initially a 200g LRN called the Mk. I, various elements of Brit Army voiced concerns about Hague Convention rules against expanding bullets, so they switched to the Mk II 178g FMJ. Both Marks had a "Z" version, which denoted either nitrocellulose or cordite loading, I forget which. (I can look it up if anyone wants to know.)

I've been playing around with loads for my 4 S&W Mods. 32-1 (2") and 4 Mods. 33/33-1 (4") 5-shooters in caliber .38 S&W, as well as for my tighter-chambered Colt Police Positive Special. With 158g LSWC at 710fps, or 200g or 215g LFN bullets at low-600s fps from a 4" barrel, the bullets track straight thru 6 gallon jugs of water and embed themselves in a 2x12 stop board. From a snubby, the 158g stuck partially in the board, IIRC, and the 200s LFP only dented the stop board.

From a 4" barrel, the 178g ball ammo drills thru multiple overcoat layers, a milk jug, starts tumbling & explodes jugs 2 & 3, and IIRC passed thru more jugs. (This coming week I'll write up those results from my notes.)

Although the factory 145g (Winchester) and 146g (Remington) loads are LRNs at a stately 685fps, this power level is kept low due to the existence of bazillions of old break-tops of weak construction. Loading manuals such as Lee 2nd and Lyman 49th make it clear that you can load to levels that approach low-end .38 SPL ballistics in modern, solid-frame revolvers. Certainly I'd be comfortable doing so in a K-frame that's in good condition. Pushing a 200g at around 700fps would create a fair-sized wallop on the receiving end. I keep my J frames down in the low 600s with 200g bullet, which was the vel of the original Brit service ammo.

The widespread popularity of the round in late-19th and early-20th centuries was partly due to its suitability for compact-framed revolvers with short cylinders, not to mention low recoil/report. Once you get up to K frame, though, it has no advantage over .38SPL, and its only advantage in J frame is the easy, full-length ejection stroke when it's time to reload :-)
 
BTW, I just checked. Neither my S&W nor my Colt .38 S&Ws will chamber a .38 SPL cartridge, as it was too long.

My Colt .38 SPL would not chamber a .38 S&W cartridge, as the cartridge was too wide. The cartridge DID fit into my S&W Mod. 15 in .38 SPL--easy slip-fit.

Interestingly, my Colt chambered for .38 S&W also has tighter chambers and smaller groove diameter than the S&W revolvers I have. The .361 bullets that the S&W digests easily (.359 groove diameter)will not chamber in the Colt, which does fine with .358s. FWIW, Speer 13 loads for .38 S&W were made up with .38 SPL bullets, i.e. .357 jacketed or .358 lead, and they reported "acceptable accuracy." They used an S&W Mod. 33-1 for their testing.
 
It's always a toss up as to if 38 S&W will fit in a 38 Special chamber. I once owned a Lend Lease Victory and was surprised to discover I could only load factory 38 S&W ammo into three of the six chambers. A quick inspection showed me that a 38 Special cylinder had been installed at some point. I don't know if the three loose chambers were the result of relaxed wartime manufacturing standards or overzealous cleaning and polishing of the chambers.
 
Well, a call to make sure the dealer was in the shop netted me the info that he's not. The gun is not in the display case according to the clerk. He says the book doesn't show that it sold, though, so hopefully I'll know more Wednesday.

Forgot to ask the exact barrel length.
 
Still haven't seen the old 38 S&W. Just caught up with the dealer via phone. He says measured the barrel from the face of the cylinder to the muzzle and claims it has a 6" barrel.

Dave n, his place is a small gun, pawn, and riding tack shop and he says he has never done a C&R transaction. Says he'll check into it shortly and let me know. I'll forward the info including his lowest price in case you're interested.
 
baling machine 1, sunday bill 0

Can't catch up with the dealer, who makes most of his money in horse hay this time of year.

Don't understand how he's baling hay between the three or four showers we've been getting each day. Must be "fluffing" a lot.

Don't know why he called to begin with if he didn't plan on being in the shop for a month.

Sorry for the apparent false alarm.
 
Finally got to see the 38-200 today but did not speak with the dealer. The gun appears to me about as he described it, except it has several small scratches (some border on tiny gouges) in various locations. The sides of the muzzle reflect some holster carry. The grips appear original and are quite nice. The lanyard is present. It is definitely 6" in the barrel, and bears the 3.5 ton marking as well as probably a dozen or more other (Brit, I guess)proof marks. I can see the shoulder in the chambers that prevent a load as long as a 38 Spec from dropping in.

Jeremy was in a hayfield while his dad minded the store, so I didn't get to discuss price particulars or C&R possibilities.

Don't know if it was the long, slender barrel that gives the old gal the graceful look that brings Zenyatta-in-stride to mind, but after looking, I've got a gnawing feeling that these old guns can create a gnawing feeling.
 
Throw a rope around 'em, Bill! Tell him he's supposed to make hay while the sun shines, but sell guns (for a good price) when it's raining :-)
Then, load up some flat-pointed 200g to 650-700 fps and smack some targets with that piece of history. . . .
 
070.jpg


Here are my 38/200s. The one on the top is a 6 inch blued gun with regular stocks for the 1940 manufacture date. It has Canadian proof marks on it. The front revolver is the classic Victory model with plain stocks, parkerized type finish, and a 5 inch barrel. Both of mine are chambered in the 38/200. I load a 158 grain round nosed lead with 2.2 grains of Win 231 or HP-38 with decent results. any more powder makes the .358 bullet start to tumble and I get keyholes on the ol target.
 
JB,
Those are NICE-looking revolvers!

I don't know the groove size of S&W's from that era. My Mods. 32-1 and 33-1 are .359. Have you ever slugged yours?

If you cast your own bullets, you can either get a mold that drops something large enough or you can "beagle" a regular .358 mold. My 358430 custom mold has warped somewhat, and instead of .360-.361 I'm now getting .357-358 with my heavyweight 200g LRNs, but I will "beagle" it with aluminum tape to get a larger diameter when I need more bullets for my .38 S&Ws. That's also what I do with my mold for 140g LSWCs, which drops 147g at .360. The bullets are very slightly out-of-round from the beagling, but it's not visibly obvious & it's not a factor in short-range shooting.

According to Ed Harris, Victory model .38-200s can handle 200g at 700fps, which is even more than the 600-650fps of the original British service ammo. If you've looked at my threads about penetration tests I've done with such loads, you'll see that such a heavy bullet at low 600s can really pound through water, newspaper, etc. More test results follow in the next several days!
 
Can't bring myself to do it!

I'm too long a 44 and 45 freak and lately I've bought (felt like I stole it) a 4" nickel 1905 4th Change from the 1920s whose cylinder face had never been totally blackened, a 4" 1951 or so Pre-10 in great shape, and a 6" 10-5 that will hold its own accuracy-wise with most of my revolvers. I also still have the 1948 C-Model (it's one year my junior) that belonged to my great, great uncle, Sunday Bill Smith, a gambler and roustabout and the gent from whom I got my forum name.

My cowboy action club offers a new class called "Hillbilly" which requires bib overalls, double action pistols, a single shot shotgun and a regular pistol caliber lever gun. I'm very into shooting these old 10s, Pre-10s, etc., along with my 1917s, 24-3s, etc. Don't know why I never got into shooting these things double action before. Bout as much fun as a man can have in bib overalls.

At any rate, although I really appreciate the aesthetics of the old S&W, I'm not willing to wait a few months to gather the brass, bullets and/or moulds, loading dies, and possibly sizing dies needed to add 38 S&W to my little arsenal.

If anyone wants the shop phone #, I'll be glad to PM it. However, I strongly suspect he'll stick to the marked price which is $375 if he has to ship to another FFL, C&R, or whatever., but you can do the dickering.
 
Thought I had some 38/200 ammo in my "stuff" but it was an old empty Peters box of 38 Sp 200 gr . I did have an almost full box of very old UMC 38 LC also a 44Bulldog and a 41Long that came from my Grandpa's barn.
 
.38 Super Police ammo?

Does anybody have any of the old factory-loaded .38 S&W "Super Police" ammo, loaded with 200g bullet?

If so, can you test it for us & post the results? (Or I'll pay you to ship it to me to test--I've got about 100 milk jugs awaiting their chance to be crash-test dummies :-)
 
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