.38 S&W case is shorter, but also larger diameter than .38 Special. A .38 S&W round will usually not chamber in an unmodified .38 Special cylinder.
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38 M&P Model 1905, 4th change. With unusual markings
- Thread starter Long Branch Setter
- Start date
OP
Copy. I’ve gotten an education tonight thanks to y’all. Just finished reading info on the 38 S&W. Now I’m on a hunt for some of that ammo see if it fits. I’m also going to slug the bore and take some measurements.
Is the 38 S&W the same as the 38/200 British round used in the Webley revolver? When I find out one way or the other, I’ll be back.
Actually it is called .380/200 I think, if loaded with a 200 grain bullet. Dimensionally the same as .38 S&W. I think .38 Special uses a .357 diameter bullet. .38 S&W is nominally .361.
I think S&W used the same diameter barrel for either caliber. For instance, during WWII they made .38 M&Ps in .38 S&W for the British and in .38 Special for U. S. forces. Think they used the same barrels except for difference in length. 4-inch barrels for U. S. and 5-inch for the British.
I think S&W used the same diameter barrel for either caliber. For instance, during WWII they made .38 M&Ps in .38 S&W for the British and in .38 Special for U. S. forces. Think they used the same barrels except for difference in length. 4-inch barrels for U. S. and 5-inch for the British.
I'm guessing that this revolver has had the chambers altered to accept the .38 S&W cartridge.
Please post a picture of the cylinder, taken from the rear, so that we can see the inside of the chambers. Look for two "rings" inside.
Please post a picture of the cylinder, taken from the rear, so that we can see the inside of the chambers. Look for two "rings" inside.
DWalt
Member
The .38 S&W cartridge is a very early American cartridge design, long preceding the .38 S&W Special. It has a slightly greater case diameter than the .38 S&W Special, and will nearly always not fit into an unaltered .38 S&W Special chamber. It is most definitely NOT a shorter version of the .38 S&W Special. Likewise, a .38 S&W Special cartridge is too long to fit into an unaltered .38 S&W chamber.. It is not unusual to find some .38 S&W revolvers that have been later rechambered to allow .38 S&W Special cartridges to be used in them. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a cartridge called a .38 S&W Long. However there are cartridges called the .38 Long Colt and the .38 Short Colt. Both are dimensionally identical to the .38 S&W Special cartridge except for having shorter case lengths. Both can be used in any revolver chambered for the longer .38 S&W Special cartridge. There was never a cartridge which was officially designated as the .38/200. The similar British cartridge was designated as either the .380 Revolver Mark 1, which used a 200 grain lead bullet, or the later .380 Revolver Mark 2, which used a 178 grain jacketed bullet. Both are dimensionally identical to, and interchangeable with, the American .38 S&W cartridge. It is entirely possible, but would be unusual, that your revolver was originally made in .38 S&W Special, and was later rechambered to accept .38 S&W/.380 Revolver cartridges. If a .38 S&W cartridge can easily be chambered in your revolver, it then becomes highly likely that is what was done. The British were known to have performed that .38 Special to .380 conversion early in WWII. It would have been about a five minute job. You really need to obtain a .38 S&W cartridge to find out for sure.
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OP
Two rings inside the cylinder. 38 S&W round fits perfectly.
OP
It appears the fund was originally made for 38 Special. Anyone know what the service round was for Austrian Police in the 1920’s? I’m guessing it may have went there first as a police service weapon. I don’t think it went to the British and converted bc of the lack of proof marks, Brits love those things.
Somewhere along the line it was given to or became property of the British or a British colony who converted it to 38 S&W. Wild guess I know.
Somewhere along the line it was given to or became property of the British or a British colony who converted it to 38 S&W. Wild guess I know.
Mystery gun for sure. Did she come with stocks ? Smooth or checked?
Looks like she’s all there and ready to go.
Ammo? I’m thinking, ALL of the above!
Lastly is the Butt drilled for a lanyard?
OP
Hard to see the rings. It ‘s converted to 38 S&W.
OP
The 38 S&W cartridge has a slightly larger diameter than the 38 Special. A 38 S&W will not normally chamber in a 38 Special cylinder.
If a live round was head stamped 38 THIS gun would probably fire it and save your life.
Nice gun to have during the time period.
Nice gun to have during the time period.
38MkIIz vas the cartridge designed from Col. Boys for Enfield N°2 pistol in 1930 and is a "dragster" S&W 38 with 200 gr ball and heavy load of "neonite", In I WW British service used ,455 pistols like Webley Mk VI, Colt 1909 and S&W triple lock,
Enfield N°2 is pierced at .360" but Webley and S&W maintains .358.
Late S&W 10 for US NAVY where chambered fo '39 S&W Special ctg but are really fragile guns and often broks barrel
Postwar many european armourer modify cilinder to accomodate 38 Special cartridge, often without termal treatment. Tehe are expecially dangerous weapons.
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DWalt
Member
Prior to Lend Lease and the U.S. entry into the war, the British purchasing commission was buying up whatever guns they could find in the USA including dealer stock for their war effort. Simple enough to ream the chambers of .38 Special revolvers to accept the .380 military cartridge and put them into military service. Yours could very well have been one of those which was given to the Austrian civil police by the British during the postwar occupation period.
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Yes, you are mistaken . . . .
The 38 Smith&Wesson cartridge is slightly FATTER than the 38 Special. (As is the groove diameter also.)
RM Vivas
US Veteran
This could be one of those "send a gun to defend a British home" sort of deals that wound up in British military hands and at the end of the war went to arm the Occupation police. Just a thought.
Best,
RM Vivas
Best,
RM Vivas
Rakkasan13F
Member
It sounds like this gun might be worth lettering, if only to find out where it originally went.
DBrainard
Member
I’m super jealous! This was used by the occupying forces post WW2 then passed on to Austria.
The Brits had 38 Special Pre-Victory revolvers that they ordered direct prior to our involvement in WW2. These WILL NOT be marked U.S. Property and WILL NOT have the V prefix. After the 38/200 Victory models arrived these 38 Specials were handed off to less embattled regions of the Empire. The barrel should read “38 S&W Special CTG”
These are noted in The Smith & Wesson Catalogue under 1905 4th change. (4th edition p163) Yours fits the SN range. I also confirmed the British purchase through Ian Skinnerton, author of “The Broad Arrow.” He is a British firearms historian and a good friend.
I collect guns of the British Empire. You have a beautiful revolver! I wish I had one!
Here’s some pics of my South African.
The Brits had 38 Special Pre-Victory revolvers that they ordered direct prior to our involvement in WW2. These WILL NOT be marked U.S. Property and WILL NOT have the V prefix. After the 38/200 Victory models arrived these 38 Specials were handed off to less embattled regions of the Empire. The barrel should read “38 S&W Special CTG”
These are noted in The Smith & Wesson Catalogue under 1905 4th change. (4th edition p163) Yours fits the SN range. I also confirmed the British purchase through Ian Skinnerton, author of “The Broad Arrow.” He is a British firearms historian and a good friend.
I collect guns of the British Empire. You have a beautiful revolver! I wish I had one!
Here’s some pics of my South African.
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Major 2
Member
What I believe you have... After WWII Austria was divided into 4 sectors.
Under British, French, Russian and US authority.
The British & US rather quickly realized the Austrian Gendarmerie which had been disarmed, needed re-arming.
Under Denazification, the Allied initiative to re-install former Police.
The British supplied 303 Enfield's and revolvers such as yours.
Note: the issue MK #3* Enfields
Under British, French, Russian and US authority.
The British & US rather quickly realized the Austrian Gendarmerie which had been disarmed, needed re-arming.
Under Denazification, the Allied initiative to re-install former Police.
The British supplied 303 Enfield's and revolvers such as yours.
Note: the issue MK #3* Enfields
Austrian Gendarmerie in the British Occupied Sector, early 1950s. Note: the issue MK #3* Enfields
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