.38 spcl/158gr SWC/Unique--What's the real maximum standard load?

[nitesite]

Sorry, Nitesite, but somebody has to say it:



How do you keep the powder in the case over the bullet?

ZOMG!!!!!!!! Did I really type that I put powder OVER a bullet???????

Sheesh. Chalk it up to patrolling three 12-hr 8-8 night shifts in a row. I'm reluctantly a bit scattered at this point. But I am going to go to bed today and have the next 48-hrs off starting tonight!!!!!

I know for a fact that Erich cut his teeth with powder dippers and made some truly awesome revolver ammo with dipper-charged loads. So take it out on him, cuz he's wide awake right now!

 

[Erich]

Truth is that I've typed that exact wording more than once and so I'm just especially sensitive to seeing it.

Hope you get some good rest and have some fun before you have to go back in.

 

[Erich]

Friend nitesite inspired me! I just went out to the garage and dipped a batch of Unique loads and a batch of Green Dot loads. Always nice to do something that feels productive on a day off.

 

[Paul5388]

Are you staying warm Erich? I've heard NM is experiencing some energy shortages. This global warming is about to freeze me to death!

 

[Erich]

Thanks, Paul - it was -8°F when I went to work yesterday (for real, not wind chill) and -6 the day before that. I enjoyed a walk at lunch both days.

Today there are gas shortages around NM due to brownouts in Tejas . . . no problem for me, but there are a lot of people in the boonie areas w/o heat.

 

[1x2]

Once upon a time I had trouble throwing consistent charges of Unique with a Uniflow and a Lyman 55. I bought a Redding #3 and that fixed it. When the Lyman DPS 1200 came out I bought one for Unique and one for 2400 and have never looked back. I save the Redding for powders I don't use so often, like bullseye, aa5, and h110.

I had a 10-5 with a 6" bbl that was gorgeous and particularly tight; 4.9 gr of Unique under (under, Erich) a 158gr swc ran 910fps out of that particular revolver. I have since run out of utility for 6" barreled .38 sp revolvers and gave them up. I've loaded 5 grains and better, but they're unnecessarily punchy for my current purposes.

 

[Missionary]

Good morning
First canister of powder I bought when I ETS éd(1973) was Unique. Dad and his Navy buddy used it in 38´s.
You do not want to go Max with Unique. Unique will pressure spike with just a very slight powder addition that pushes it over it´s pressure curve. That is one of the reasons there is such manual variation. Your cylinders are fatter or narrower than mine. Our brass does not expand with an equal ratio. A max load safe in my old Colt Police Positive goes beyond safe in your narrower cylinder and pressure spikes.
Longer cases, thicker cases, fatter bullets, differnt lead hardness, hotter primer, rougher throats.... the variasions are inumerable. But the results are the same when a max load + of Unique pressure spikes. It will ruin a pleasant shooting day.
In my revolvers I shoot 4 grains plinking. 4.5 for serious double tap practice. 5 grains is my never to cross line in 38 Special with a 158-165 grain cast. There are plenty of other powders to use out there that will get +P velocity without pressure spike concerns.

 

[bpm32]

Ralph, thanks for the link. I was aware of that supplier. My last contact with him was he was currently not making bullets due to a health issue. I recently saw something indicating he may be back in business. But I see nothing to indicate his bullets are sized but not lubed. Lube is usually applied during the sizing process. His site does mention the "size" but the omission of lube info probably means he is just using a standard lube. Rim Rock also makes a Keith style bullet. But their lube groove, while square cut, is very shallow. The one's I received weighted approx 165 grains, a little lighter than advertised.

I contacted Black River a few days ago and got this reply:

"Sorry, but I've given up casting.

Joe"

There are plenty of other guys hand casting bullets and you fellas have just about convinced me to do it myself.

 

[Ralph G. Briscoe]

The sun finally came out here so I could properly chrony my 4.7 gr Unique/158gr LSWCHP loads today. Big surprise. Last time I tried it was overcast and the only reading that looked real was 795....the rest read in the 400 fps range which I knew was incorrect....assumed 795 was a real read. Today 5 shots from my LCR averaged 910 fps! 908,917,919,914,893...all about 100fps higher than I expected from what I've read and heard here. Double-checked my old RCBS scale with an even older Pacific (c. 1964...the kind that came with a little tube of weights). It indicated that, if anything, the RCBS charges were a tiny bit light...4.6 or so. That leaves the chrony--a new "Shootingchrony" made in Canada ordered from Midway. Any thoughts? If I'm really getting that kind of velocity with that load from a 2" barrel I'm very happy but seems too good to be true.

 

[1x2]

Ralph,
It does seem a little fast for Unique out of a 2" bbl. You could try a couple things. Most obviously, borrow someone's chrony, or show up when someone else is using theirs. What I'd do first is buy a box of 20 rounds of quality ammo with published specs from a shorter barrel and head to the range with that box, chrony, and some reloads. Compare the outcomes on the same day with the published specs, and your reloads.

I don't know where you are, but you can add a little velocity for elevation and subtract velocity for colder temperatures.

Interesting, let us know what you come up with.

 

[Treeman]

Probably the cheapest chrony check is some .22lr ammo. Ideally you buy a bunch of one lot, check it on several chronographs and then use it for yuor own chrony check for years to come. A more slapdash method is to take several different types of .22lr and shoo it over your chrony . If the velocities are all way high or way low from published specs for your barrel length then you know you have a problem-If the .22 stuff is reasonably close then your chrony can be presumed to be reasonably accurate also.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I didn’t mean to make a thread hijack. I always have to question how people are measuring out either Unique or Trail Boss. They both drive me nuts. Especially Unique. I think I get it set just right finally and then it goes all catawampus on me again. I waste more time using the scale and throwing back powder. Give me some Bullseye or HP-38 any day. In a .38 the max load I have used for Unique has been 4.7 or 4.8 and I have been fine with that. I’m not saying I think that is the highest you could go. I cast my own 158 grain from a Lee tumble lube mold. I think it’s about as sooty as the Bullseye. I do have an admission though… Most of my reloaded .38’s go into .357’s. I still just don’t trust all the variables that go into reloading just yet to try them in an aluminum J frame all the time. I measure each charge if they go into my not so strong guns. I have one of the 1905 something or other change model hand ejector and I refuse to load to heavy for it. And I just don’t see the need to risk too much pressure. That being said, I have never had a problem with a reload yet. I always catch when Unique is gumming up the works yet again. But I think depending on the bullet, crimp, and a few other factors that I would go as high as 5.0 and not worry too much.

 

[ChuckS1]

Well, Speer #8 says the max for Unique is 6.0 grains... Given the SR4756 data, I wonder...

BTW, someone was looking for Phil Sharpe's book. Ths link also has Hatcher's Notebook and other interesting pubs.

Ammunition Reloading Books torrent download - Fenopy.com

 

[Hunt200]

I respectfully disagree with my more learned colleagues.

I have used 4.3 grains Unique for 40+ years in .38 Special under 158 gr RNL. In my opinion, it is not unlike Winchester's "Any Rifle" .45-70 load. It isn't a Magnum; it won't bring down satellites, or charging brown bears. It is a .38 Special and is very accurate.

Plus 1 on the Lee dipper method.

If the .38 isn't enough, use the Krag.

This is exactly my load and method, except I made my own dipper out of brass. Extremely accurate and fun to shoot.

 

[Gamecock]

I've been working up a max standard pressure defense load for use in my vintage Detective Specials. 158 gr LSWCHP/Unique/Winchester primers. The data are is over the map--
Hornady 1973 manual--max 6.1 grains (not designated +P)
Speer 1974 manual-- max 4.7 gr
Lyman 1970 manual-- max 5.4 gr
Lyman 1973 cast manual--max 5.1
Hornady 5th edition manual--max 4.2
Alliant manual-- max 4.3 gr (they list 4.5 gr as "plus P")

Any wise advice as to how hot I can safely load for these old guns would be appreciated. I recently saw a vintage Colt ad which listed the ammo suited to the D Special. They included the 38/44 loads--no thanks

Alliant website suggests 4.7 grains of Unique as maximum.
I see you have been cooking some 4.7 loads. I don't think
5.0 would give you a problem, but don't push it if you don't
need to.

The great variability of load data from antiquity is due to our
grandfathers testing loads in standard revolvers, and then
looking for signs of pressure. SAAMI .38 Special max is 17k.
If you shot loads at 30,000 psi, you may get no pressure
signs at all. Primers have no problem with 30k psi. Your first
sign of pressure in your old revolver could be when it shoots
loose. Ruined.

Modern load data comes from testing with instrumented
guns, or even instrumented test barrels. Modern data should
be used whenever available.

Joe

 

[Crabtree]

I did not read the entire thread, but I use Missouri 158gr swc a good bit and I know my notes say that anything beyond 4.75 is smokey and tumbles. 4.5 works really well for me. Edited to add that i am talking about unique....And I only use dippers, mostly homemade.

 

[Nevada Ed]

All I know is that in my J frame snub nose with a 158 gr lead bullet..............
5.0 grs of Unique with a cci std primer and heavy crimp,is all the +P that the ladys of the house, want to shoot.

5.4grs is ok in a K frame,due to the heavy recoil.....It will
get your attentin in a light J frame.

4.5-4.7grs makes for a nice medium load in most revolvers.

 

[MikeyB]

Yep, 4.5gr of Unique for 158 SWC's is perfect for me. My wife prefers 125's out of her J-frame.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

With a 158 lead, modern data says about 4.2 grns of Unique.

For my D framed Colts I shot 5 grns of Unique with 158's for decades. Yes it will cause some wear but after over 42,000 rounds fired out of my Diamondback, I don't think it is a big deal.

For 38/44's 5 grns of unique is a nice plinking load. Very mild.

 

[mtgianni]

I have a modern 38 and have used the Ly 70's book load since I started reloading for it. I do find that 5.0 gr is nearly as accurate. Unique flows through my Ly 1200 DPS easily.