38 Special Defense-Old School

[BreakerDan]

Just for kicks, say this is 1949 instead of
2009 and I am carrying an M&P 4".
What would have been the best vintage load?

148gr Wads- no turning them backwards
158gr LRN
200gr Super Police

.....Alright nobody laugh, my pre Model 15 has
some of the last 200 gr Super Police loads made by WW in it now.

 

[BreakerDan]

Just for kicks, say this is 1949 instead of
2009 and I am carrying an M&P 4".
What would have been the best vintage load?

148gr Wads- no turning them backwards
158gr LRN
200gr Super Police

.....Alright nobody laugh, my pre Model 15 has
some of the last 200 gr Super Police loads made by WW in it now.

 

[Papaw]

I'd use the 148 wadcutter.

 

[Andy Taylor]

The wadcutter

 

[38-44HD45]

148gr. WC, hands-down. Put those Super Police loads in a display case somewhere. They were a bad idea in 1949, are no better now.

 

[flop-shank]

Wads are a seriously good defensive load, even now. Not the best, but a good niche load for the recoil sensitive. The others are useful for nothing IMO.

 

[Centenniel]

Yup, I'd also have to go with the wadcutters.

 

[RedBerens]

What about the 4th choice? A 158gr lead semi-wadcutter.

 

[flop-shank]

Originally posted by RedBerens:
What about the 4th choice? A 158gr lead semi-wadcutter.

I would rather use wadcutters, but SWC is a good choice and better for use in a speedloader.

 

[Spotteddog]

I'll stay with the trend. Of those W/C.

 

[n4zov]

I assume you are referring to factory loads and not handloads. In which case, the 158 grn. LRN was about the best of the choices you offer. It was certainly the load most likely to have been used by law enforcement in those days. The 148 grain wadcutters were target loads and simply did not have enough velocity to penetrate reliably and especially if they hit heavy clothing or auto bodies. Since none of these loads have a bullet design that would lead to reliable expansion, penetration was about the only plus available in those loads.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Actually the old medium velocity wadcutter was not a bad defense load. Back in "the old days" they could be had in both low and medium velocity. The 158 RNL made clean, neat, small holes in bodies and tended to bounce off heads. The old NYPD stakeout squad once shot a guy in the head 5 times with those and he walked to the ambulance. None penetrated the skull. If you could get the medium velocit wadcutters I would go with that for sure.

 

[Homie]

158 LRN-HV!

Speed kills.

Good shooting.

 

[flop-shank]

The 148 grain wadcutters were target loads and simply did not have enough velocity to penetrate reliably and especially if they hit heavy clothing or auto bodies. Since none of these loads have a bullet design that would lead to reliable expansion, penetration was about the only plus available in those loads.

Not so. I've tested target level wadcutters and will tell you that they penetrate very deep with boring regularity. They also track very straight and seem to penetrate to the same depth whether heavy clothing is present or not. Jim Cirillo said RNL was awful, leaving ice pick-like wounds, but that wadcutters made full caliber holes that "let the blood out and the air in". RNL is probably the worst shape for a defensive bullet there is. I'll also add that Jim tested bullets against auto bodies and found that bullets with a rounded ogive glanced off when fired at angles that didn't deflect bullets with a sharp shoulder.

 

[Parson Colt]

Aother vote for the wadcutter.

 

[617fan]

The wife decided it was time for a new griddle and I decided the old one would make a fun target. It was 1/8" thick metal (it rusted after being shot so it wasn't aluminum). The 38 Special 158 grn round nosed Blazers fired from my 2" Model 60 punched through it like a .22 through a beer can, really peeling back some pretty impressive holes. I have read all the stories about 38's bouncing off windshields and car doors etc. They may be true, but I gained a new found respect for .38 special target loads.

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

The apparent truth about handgun bullet performance is that it will always work great on the good guys or on things you don't want penetrated (like a car door being used for cover in a fight). Conversely, the best ammo we can bring to a fight seems to be either lousy or mediocre when used on bad guys that need shooting very badly. I've seen several calibers and rounds that we'd never consider using to defend ourselves kill an innocent victim graveyard dead on the spot and have also seen excellent rounds used on bad guys that didn't work worth spit.

 

[.455_Hunter]

.....Alright nobody laugh, my pre Model 15 has some of the last 200 gr Super Police loads made by WW in it now.

I am not laughing. If I had some of the more recent production factory 200 gr.loads in shooting quantities, I would probably do the same. Its NOT a bad load for soft target defense.

 

[Texas Star]

I'd guess the medium speed wadcutter. It would have about the speed of the lead RN load, but more impact.

The late Maj. George Nonte commented once on that load, but it had already been discontinued. It apparently never got much publicity as anything but a target load.

It would lack the aerodynamic qualities of the RN, but at average gunfight distances, that would hardly be a factor.

Anyone who has read Keith's, "Sixguns" knows the effect of the wadcutter on small game, vs. the RN load. That would presumably carry over to larger targets.

Does anyone know during which years this medium speed wadcutter was loaded?

T-Star

 

[00Buckshot62]

I'd be a spoiler & go w/ the 38/44 158 rnl load