38 Special +P FBI load - yesterday same as today ?

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Pointshoot

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Hi guys - given that long time handloaders are likely to know more about this than anyone else - I thought I'd ask this question here:

The 38 Special +P 158gr lead SWCHP is called the 'FBI load' and was well regarded 'back in the day' when cops carried 4" barrel service revolvers. I've seen this ammunition currently offered from manufacturers listed at velocities from 890-1000fps. What velocity was standard in the past ? (As we know, many cartridges are run milder now than they used to in prior days.) Are todays versions offered by manufacturers the same as in the past ?

Of course, velocity isn't everything. A bullet can be run too fast, causing it to break up and limit penetration. What velocity have you found to work best when shooting a 158gr lead SWCHP ? This will be for use in K frames. 4" barrel Model 64 and 6" barrel Model 10. I've done a search here and have seen some good handloading recipes, and I'd like to get an idea of what would match the old FBI load in performance.
Thanks in advance for your comments. Best regards, - - -
 
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Undoubtedly the best load for the 158 grain LSWCHP is right at 1000 fps. The reason for this is penetration. It has been proven again and again that the Model 10 can handle enough of these for both practice and carry use. Bullet placement and penetration are the prime directive for antipersonnel purposes.

Erich, (an attorney that frequents this site) that has been in the morgue with enough gunshot victims repeatedly tells of the use of heavy .38 Special loads. All of his examples perform their best when using heavier bullets at higher velocities.

The only reason the FBI stopped using them, was due to the transition to the 10mm Auto pistol. The S&W Model 13 was the "sweetheart" of the Feebies because the 3" heavy barrel soaked up some of the 158 grain +P load's recoil.

Scott
 
Factory data has this load at 890 fps for a +p loading in their tests but it can be different in your guns.

My 686 6" gets a +P load with Alliants maximum 38 spl loading of reddot and it hits at poa. Winchesters +P load of w231will also get you at a +P velosity in a 6".

In a snub nose only Unique will get you the "FBI" load with the Alliant powders with 38 spl data but the recoil is harsh. You can get 792 to 813 fps with the others if you don't mind a lighter load. .I don't have the new PP.
 
When originally produced in the early 70s, the W-W LSWCHP had a claimed velocity of, I believe, 1090 fps. The Law Enforcement Handgun Digest of 1972 has a velocity chart on p. 188, which shows 1014 fps for this load (W38SPD) from a 4" revolver barrel. This has been 'watered down' to the current 890 fps as the other posters have pointed out. When old and present loadings are fired consecutively, there is a noticeable difference. Hope this helps. VL
 
Thanks guys ! I knew you fellas would know the answer to this.

I had seen (and bookmarked) the thread on duplicating the Buffalo Bore load and that's something that I want to eventually work on.

Since the police switched over to semi-autos, I would guess that manufacturers weakened the 'FBI load' in order to add to their bottom line. Or maybe to make it more shootable out of lighter weight J-frames ? I'll have to do some more research on this.

Thank you again for clearing this up. I appreciate it. Best regards, - - -
 
Rule3 said:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/91534-duplicating-buffalo-bore-fbi-load.html

I do not know of any agency still using a lead bullet.
Click to expand...

The LSWCHP pictured on this thread appears to have a gas check.

I agree. This also begs the question, how many agencies are shooting the revolver? I thought not.

So many people are shooting the "J" frame revolvers, perhaps that's the reason. This doesn't negate the efficiency of the "full house" FBI load. Some things still work well.

Scott
 
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gunfan said:
The LSWCHP pictured on this thread appears to have a gas check.

I agree. This also begs the question, how many agencies are shooting the revolver? I thought not.

So many people are shooting the "J" frame revolvers, perhaps that's the reason. This doesn't negate the efficiency of the "full house" FBI load. Some things still work well.

Scott
Click to expand...

I also wonder if the country started to become more lawsuit crazy around that time & if corporate lawyers feared that someone would misuse the full power loads in an old, weaker gun. If cops were going to semi autos and civilians were now the primary customers, maybe this fear outweighed the demand for the most effective loads.
 
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Shooting the BB 158gr LSWCHP +P out of a alloy J fame is pretty much the same as a 357 Mag out of alloy frame. It is brutal. Follow up shots are difficult unless you are really a experienced shooter.

With today's bullet technology like the Gold Dot or Golden Saber, Hydra Shok whatever. you can get good results with a lighter bullet and not the massive flash and recoil. JMO.
 
Did the FBI use plus P or Magnum in the M13? I had assumed that they used the M13 so they could use Magnum ammo. Otherwise, a M10 or 64 would have done the job.

Best,
Rick
 
riverrat38: According to my buddy, a retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent, the .38 +P LHP was the standard load. Agents could carry the W-W .357M 145gr Silvertip if they qualified with it.
 
model 10 and 64 J frames were 38 specials..........that were feed the "FBI load" but normally shot the standard velositys when not on duty.
The other K and N frame .357 magnums were loaded with standard 38 special or the FBI +P load,depending on their department regulations.
Some could load the 38 spl case high velosity 110gr SJhp "Treasery load" in their magnums, but normally .357 ammo was not allowed or issued in service weapons, but later used by Border patrol and Highway Patrolmen.

Picture of a remington and winchester (right) 158gr "FBI" out of a 4 inch barrel.

b4djmc.jpg
 
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Pointshoot said:
Hi guys - given that long time handloaders are likely to know more about this than anyone else - I thought I'd ask this question here:

The 38 Special +P 158gr lead SWCHP is called the 'FBI load' and was well regarded 'back in the day' when cops carried 4" barrel service revolvers. I've seen this ammunition currently offered from manufacturers listed at velocities from 890-1000fps. What velocity was standard in the past ? (As we know, many cartridges are run milder now than they used to in prior days.) Are todays versions offered by manufacturers the same as in the past ?

Of course, velocity isn't everything. A bullet can be run too fast, causing it to break up and limit penetration. What velocity have you found to work best when shooting a 158gr lead SWCHP ? This will be for use in K frames. 4" barrel Model 64 and 6" barrel Model 10. I've done a search here and have seen some good handloading recipes, and I'd like to get an idea of what would match the old FBI load in performance.
Thanks in advance for your comments. Best regards, - - -
Click to expand...

Although not exactly what you are asking about, if you want to see what the FBI was using back in the 30s, go to the Buffalo Bore web site and order a few boxes of their 38 Special "Outdoorsman" load, which is the .38/44 Load the the 158 grain semi-wadcutter at 1150 fps.

Go fire a few of those in your Colt Police Positive (yes, Colt said it was OK for the FBI to use them in the issue Police Positive) if you want to see whether you are as tough as the G-Men of the 1930s! :)
 
Back in those days it didn't matter if the police shot very heavy loads in their Colt and S&W revolvers because if they shot loose you could turn them in to the department and get your revolver replaced. I don't think anyone would want to do that today, especially with a Colt since you can't just turn it in for another.
 
shawn mccarver said:
Although not exactly what you are asking about, if you want to see what the FBI was using back in the 30s, go to the Buffalo Bore web site and order a few boxes of their 38 Special "Outdoorsman" load, which is the .38/44 Load the the 158 grain semi-wadcutter at 1150 fps.

Go fire a few of those in your Colt Police Positive (yes, Colt said it was OK for the FBI to use them in the issue Police Positive) if you want to see whether you are as tough as the G-Men of the 1930s! :)
Click to expand...

shawn - I had actually ordered a few boxes of the Outdoorsman 38/44 SWC and 'true FBI load' SWCHP Buffalo Bore ammo a few days ago. I don't have a Police Positive (23 oz in a 4" version - yeeoww!). But, will try a few out of a 4" M64, 6" M10, and 4" M28. The Model 28 is about as close to a S&W 38/44 that I currently am able to shoot, I may limit the SWCs to that gun. (I also have a 686+ but that doesnt seem 'old school' enough for this ammo. :) Regards, - -
 
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I've been loading 158 gr Speer SWC-HP's over 4.5 gr W231, guesstimated at around 800 fps or a bit more out of my 2" Chief. Next time I do some loading, I'm bumping the charge up to 5.0 gr & figure I'll get close to 900 (that'd be close to 1000 fps out of a 4" tube)-- stout, but just barely into +P range.
 
If we are talking about duplicating the FBI Load I did a lot of development work on it a few years back. I found a good charge of HS-6 along with a magnum primer and a Hornady 158gr LSWC/HP bullet makes a very good replica load. I won't post the charge weight here because it's above all "Current" load manuals but the load has been estimated @ 19,800 psi, just below the 20,000 psi limits. shot next to the Remington and Federal FBI Load offerings it does feel the same although we all know that's really not a true test of pressure. That load generates 889 fps in my tests from a 2" J frame. (so it is on the "warm" side) Accuracy is very good and so are the SD numbers.

Here's the load:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
x.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Hope this helps and be careful when working up to the MAX. Here is a hint, it's higher than 6.8gr HS-6 but not as high as 7.2gr HS-6. Just remember, blame no one but yourself if something goes wrong. Current data doesn't not exceed 6.7gr but those loads are also marked as standard pressure loads, not a +P load. (Lyman Cast Handbook 3rd and 4th Editions)
 
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